Cry the Beloved Kingdom
September 5, 2008 by oldyoungdog 
Print This Post
Self-snug in our tidy and superior world
We celebrate our polished finances
As our bloodlines dry up.
We watch the lions and tigers at happy play
But miss our soaring garuda,
Our glittering dragon.
We see the trees standing soft and tall under a warm drizzle
But thirst for the thunderbolts and deluges,
The mountain of sunyata.
We see the tents, the flags and the parade ground
But long for cut water-pipes, dead-of-night drills,
The joyous panic.
We glimpse the central kingdom cloistered in its leafy glade
Where once it sang from rocks and dust,
Roared to us from a ravenous sky.
Who wrote this poem?
I have the same question as Ms. Keyser. Who wrote it?
Since no one fessed up to contributing that beautiful poem perhaps they could explain — anonymously — why they feel the need to remain anonymous.
Thanks,
Howard
From the latest Shambhala times:
“On April 4th, on the occasion of Parinirvana Day, Sakyong Mipham Rinpoche addressed the Shambhala community worldwide from New York City.
Sakyong Mipham Rinpoche proclaimed Parinirvana Day to be “a day of remembering and gratitude” both for the Vidyadhara, Chogyam Trungpa Rinpoche and for His Holiness Penor Rinpoche. ”
In the first place, with all due respect, I felt really invaded to have a tape played of the Sakyong giving a long teaching and guided meditation right when we were in the middle of the Sadhana of Mahamudra Feast practice, on April 4, the Parinirvana of Chogyam Trungpa Rinpoche. I was not able to avoid feeling upset and invaded by it.
(This was followed by a request for us to place a teacher’s gift in the hallowed teacher’s gift bowl for this “teaching on tape.”) Simply unreal.
Now , apparently, the one day there was to practice together in the Centers and relish and share with others in that precious, unique and particular CTR guru energy world wide; has been expanded to include the Sakyong’s own teacher. It really made me sad to hear this because it will no doubt lead to further changes in the forms of Parinirvana Day. It will change the nature of the way that day is experienced for hard core CTR students who want to practice with others in their Centers.
Why can’t we just have another parinirvana day for Penor Rinpoche?
I realize I am being sacrilegious, and I’m not saying this out of any disrespect for Penor Rinpoche, who was of course, a reputed master. BUT it doesn’t seem right. It completely changes the feeling of what “Parinirvana Day” has been. It almost seems Orwellian.
sorry, heart broken.
How ironic that Prajna would burn to the ground right
after VCTR’s parinirvana day…surely some kind of message from the phenomenal world. Everyone will
have their opinion as to what the message is and to
whom it is addressed.
I think gratitude and remembrance are beautiful things. Two of the most beautiful things. And I think it’s good to be grateful to everyone.
But it’s hard, as a potential member of the Shambhala kingdom, to feel gratitude and remembrance for someone I haven’t met and who is not my teacher, especially on someone else’s parinirvana day. The thought of trying to generate gratitude for someone I don’t know reminds me of how gratitude might be faked in certain other, yet equally intimate, arenas of life.
This again gets back to the question of what is Shambhala and what is the job description of Sakyong? And is SMR “allowed” to have more than one job / interest / pursuit in his life, or does he have to fit it all under the one job?
I keep getting the feeling that SMR’s understanding of his Sakyong job description– perhaps to make the Shambhala lineage more and more conform to his own personal Buddhist interests– is different from that of other people, who might see Shambhala as a container principle, or a non-sectarian, non-Buddhist lineage that has its own unique traits. That would make the Sakyong some kind of protector for this container principle, who would keep it open and roomy.
As a result of these conflictual understandings, the structures VCTR created seem like they’re being overcrowded with competing ideas and goals, like trying to fit a large Catholic family into one of those small Mini cars. When you squish a new person in one door, someone else pops out the other. It might seem okay at the moment if you’re one of the ones still in the car, but the question is whether the car itself or the family members could be damaged by this way of handling things.
Maybe the family started out full of love and compassion for each other, delighting in one another’s differences, but after being packed into a small Mini over and over, their patience and tolerance started to run thin, and they began to see each other as enemies.
How ironic that Prajna would burn to the ground
What is Prajna?
Edward,
Prajna is the house at SMC where the Vidyadhara always stayed, and where the Sakyong and Khandro Tseyang currently stay when they are there. (I’ve never been there before, but I think that is generally accurate.) It’s burning down is a major diaster, really, for many reasons.
Tsondru
I’m so very sorry to hear that. That is a tragedy.
My old teacher used to blame his own students whenever something like that happened. Once, when one of his residences burned to the ground he said it was a sign that his students were not exhibiting the proper attitude. This may sound heavy-handed, but he had the ashes from the building made into a small item of jewelry for his students to wear around their necks, as a form of remembrance of the occasion.
He said that kind of thing is never a coincidence.
Even when so-called “external enemies” attacked him in the media he said it was merely an outer reflection of his students own improper attitudes.
At one time I thought that was kind of a superstitious way to look at it, perhaps, but as I learned more about the situation, I saw that this characterization was simply true.
“But it’s hard, as a potential member of the Shambhala kingdom, to feel gratitude and remembrance for someone I haven’t met and who is not my teacher, ”
I agree, Edward, so perhaps you’ll understand the sentiments of those of us who were close to Trungpa, Rinpoche and have little connection to
Penor Rinpoche when a celebration to the memory of the Vidyadhara is
co-opted in the way described by Tsondru.
Co-opted.
I was there. I led the Sadhana of Mahamudra. Damn can’t you guys give yourselves a break for 10 seconds? The beginning of the talk was about fulfilling the Vidyadhara’s aspirations through exertion. He talked about how he was a mahasiddha, and what that meant. I mean, does every paranirvana day have to be this somber Catholic lamentation of how much we miss Chogyam Trungpa? That doesn’t sound like the conduct of a warrior to me. It reminds me more of how we idolize tragedy in our culture, building monuments and dedicating days to everything painful that we experience, solidifying it into a massive edifice. The Irish have it right, you celebrate at a funeral. I think he would have wanted it that way.
The toast that was given to the Druk Sakyong in New York at that event was beautiful.
It’s like any little kernal of validation becomes a meal.
Who knows what it meant that Prajna burned down. Like you said, any interpretation will probably be a way to reinforce one’s own conceptual backpack. It’s definitely a wake up moment, that’s for sure. I don’t know if I’d call it a “disaster.” I do believe I remember someone saying that “chaos should be regarded as extremely good news.”
When speaking of loving kindness do we pick and choose?,
sadness is always with us.
When sending and taking is it done with equanimity?
for the sake of all sentient beings?
Are we asked to not judge our own devotion?
let others devotion be.
who’s path are you traveling?
be outrageous in your leap.
Can you teach old dogs new tricks?
It would seem not.
This loyal dog, does he serve blindly?
He couldn’t care less.
Do you believe your own thoughts?
think again.
Are you for or against?
one way or the other we are nailed together.
Ashoka,
I was talking about the Boulder event. The event itself was beautiful as well, but with just a few little thorns to set this (not so 100% well practiced in equanimity) practitioner a sunder. It was the later happening, the proclamation of change for the meaning of Parinirvana day that drove the thorns in a bit deeper.
It is not that old dogs can’t learn new tricks… that isn’t the point. No need to belabor that one.
I’m not talking about a monument or decaying days. (decaying days????) Practice is practice. Guru yoga is important. Can’t there be boundaries for a special day of guru yoga for a special guru as there are in Vajrayana practices??? Is this morbid and clinging to the past? I don’t think so.
Tsondru
I went to a Shambhala event recently and it was very beautiful, and wonderfully served.
What is the origin of this old dog and tricks metaphor? Does this come from Trungpa Rinpoche? I know there’s a popular saying about dogs and tricks but I’m wondering if there’s also a reference closer to this discussion that I’m not aware of.
Personally, I think old dogs should remain loyal to what they learned from their root gurus. If that means they don’t have the latest tricks, that’s okay with me. How can a student do a new teacher any good if he doesn’t honor his root guru? I think traditionally it’s said that taking on a student like that is equivalent to jumping off a cliff.
Anyway, as I touched on earlier, I would like to have a discussion someday– maybe via a new article that someone qualified could write for this website– about what is Shambhala, and what is the Sakyong’s role in that world? As a newcomer / outsider, it seems that a lot of the conflicts that are hinted at on this website come from a largely unspoken disagreement about what “Shambhala” is.
Old dogs new tricks
beginners mind
honoring the guru
loving the guru
not this and not that
we are always too smart
tricking this and tricking that
simplicity is being.
loyalty to the guru ?
such bullshit
there is no choice
don’t judge.
there is no thing
sit with it.
cut the water line
cut the cord
cut it out
are we trapped?
samsara is endless
wandering
I must apologise
“You” are right
I missed the point
over and over
again and again
shit happens
as do we all
god bless!
Edward,
Humbly and simply, my experience from reading on this site is that old dogs are accused of not being able to learn new tricks, because they can’t handle the changes that have been happening.
While, some old dogs feel that what is happening is not OK and for valid reasons. It could get circular.
When the dust settles, you find that many old dogs have simply left, some have joined in with the changes, feeling they can continue to practice and teach in the new environment, and others have expressed concern that the teachings they once learned (the nature of Shambhala, for example) are being lost to the world. Or longing for a Sangha they can turn to that makes sense to what they have been taught. (I am all of the above.)
I agree that honoring the root guru is important. and personal. not just emptiness. We aren’t really enlightened yet!!!! Our Root guru is our source of the Dharma in ourselves, and how we find it in the world..
CALL FOR A DIASPORA
I wish to propose that older students in Halifax who are retired or have the means or a mobile livelihood consider a version of the Peace Corps but applied to the Shambhala Dharma within Nova Scotia. This would be a way of bringing the teachings to the outskirts of the Maritimes where they are most rare.
We already have a great wealth and redundancy of teachers in Halifax. If some of the teachers would consider going somewhere else away from the city centre in a spirit of generosity for a year or two, this would plant many seeds in remoter places. One could offer a space and instruction and wealth of experience to whatever strangers come to the door.
Not everyone is in a position to even consider doing such a thing, but some of us might be. Those whose lives are portable enough could go live somewhere else outside Halifax and connect with a place where there may already be one or two practitioners, or none at all. The advantage to our neighbors who might not otherwise ever be exposed to the teachings is obvious, not to mention the merit to ourselves, which is also obvious.
For those who aren’t able to move temporarily, I wish to propose that as a community service some of the hundreds of older students in Halifax form a guild and consider finding a way among themselves to arrange a sort of rota to offer their concentrated wealth to the outerlying areas. The ripple effect this would have is obvious.
Are there among the readers of this post two who can pledge to visit and teach your choice of topic to the noble practitioners of Pembroke Shore in Yarmouth County in the near future? If the answer is yes, then that would be a good beginning. Thank you.
John Castlebury
you know, the stuff about old dogs not learning new tricks seems like a way to question people’s devotion. a respectful, polite, and gentle way, but basically asking the same thing– are these people devoting themselves to the wrong thing, like worshiping false idols?
personally speaking, if I want to learn new tricks, who else can I go to to learn them from, other than old dogs, who already know the tricks?
if I’m attracted to the Shambhala teachings, who else can I go to to learn them from, other than the people Trungpa Rinpoche taught them to?
I feel like I’m missing something here.
When I first met my old teacher, I believed that his older students were really lame. They obviously did not have their act together. My teacher even specifically said this– that his old students were ossified and not getting with the game, holding on to old patterns, holding everything back.
However, once I began to see things through the old students’ eyes (which required some humility), I started to see a more complete picture. And I realized that my teacher had been playing on my own vanity and competitiveness in his comments. It was a trick, perhaps, at least in part. At the very least he was a genius at verbalizing people’s unspoken thoughts as if they were his own.
Eventually I figured I couldn’t 100% look down on the old students without also looking down on my teacher and the time he’d spent with them. And over time I learned to respect them more.
By the way, the other important group in all of this, besides old dogs and new dogs, is the group of warriors who have never been associated with the Shambhala organizations. We don’t talk about them much, perhaps, but maybe they also have a role.
Over the centuries, there have been many who have sought the ultimate good and have tried to share it with their fellow human beings. To realize it requires immaculate discipline and unflinching conviction. Those who have been fearless in their search and fearless in their proclamation belong to the lineage of master warriors, whatever their religion, philosophy, or creed. We should venerate their example and acknowledge the path that they have laid for us. They are the fathers and mothers of Shambhala.
- VCTR, Sacred Path of the Warrior
Keep on quoting Chogyam Trungpa to Will Ryken, Edward.
To be or not to be Will Ryken is to miss the point (over and over again).
Pointlessness is no longer missing the point,
no longer Will Ryken,
no longer Chögyam Trungpa quotes
no longer in or out Shambhala
Maybe then there could be
that warrior
of immaculate discipline and unflinching conviction
fearless in search
fearless in proclamation
touching heart, speaking truth, simply,
child of the true fathers and mothers of Shambhala
Very nice, Mark.
Will Ryken,
Lovely to see you are still alive. We spent some weeks together at Shambhala Sun Summer Camp in 84 or 85 at Karme Choling. I was a little boy of 17 or 18yrs, working with you and Liz C and Anna F.
I spent some years listening to Stan Rogers and meditating on memories of that summer. Quite hilarious, my attachment. It is great to see you here. I haven’t read this thread yet. But judging from some of the others, things are just heating up.
I hope that you are well.
-Ed
how generous life is
plenty of suffering to inspire us
plenty of experiences to disappointment us
plenty of obstacles to frustrate us and wake us up
if life was not so generous
I’d have built a very thick suit of armour by now
to cover my soft spot
the awkward embarrassing spot that reminds me
that life sucks!!!!
sometimes
or most of the time
but somehow it’s also
basically good
Dear Edward,
(You are Ed Michalik, aren’t you?? If you are another Edward, that’s OK too.)
I just wanted to share with you that my father was a radically liberal Christian Minister, and taught that one of Jesus’ most important teachings was: “The sacred worth of human personality.” He was an ecumenicalist (with whatever religion he could find in that small town in the 50’s.) and a social activist.
So my MAIN thing is this: on NPR, “Talk of the Nation” yesterday, They had a guest who has recently written an article for (some Economic magazine) which states that NOW is a great revival time for ALL religions, i.e. people are really searching for spirituality now.
So a listener calls in, and says something similar to what CTR said in the Sacred Path of the Warrior: that (ALL) people are really starved for (the content) of the Shambhala Vision. Only, the listener said people are really craving true valid spirituality, but then, he went on to say that the only way that can happen is if they accepted Jesus Christ as their savior.
Eeek!!! What a shocking juxtaposition!!!
So I wonder if to other people of other faiths, having Shambhala Buddhism claim that Buddhism is the only way one can practice these Shambhala teachings seems at all similar to the gut level of “turn off” one gets from statements like our poor naive NPR contributor made.
Thank you for your posts!
Thanks for the story. Yes, I think that’s it!
So I wonder if to other people of other faiths, having Shambhala Buddhism claim that Buddhism is the only way one can practice these Shambhala teachings seems at all similar to the gut level of “turn off” one gets from statements like our poor naive NPR contributor made.
I think sectarianism has always been popular, particularly among people who are not yet ripe in the dharma.
Just look at the history of Christianity, or the history of Buddhism. There’s always been a tension between, on the one hand, people who want to “own” all the good stuff, the truth or whatever, for their sect or for themselves, their cocoon, and on the other hand the way the master warriors act in the world, which is quite different.
When we can’t honor the bravery in someone from another sect, then what are we doing? We’re revealing the falseness of our own pretension to be a practitioner. We’re also, if we’re a teacher, poisoning our own tradition from within, and turning it into something false. The dralas leave and are probably replaced by other critters who thrive in a duplicitous environment.
At least that’s how it seems to me.
No, I’m not the person you mentioned, but thanks for the kind comments.
P.S. The people I have the most respect for are the ones who honor their own tradition– not to mention their parents and ethnic heritage– while also respecting people from different backgrounds, different traditions.
The interesting thing is that these two traits seems to almost always go together. It’s hard to find one without the other.
What I liked so much about Trungpa Rinpoche’s Shambhala teachings is that they allow people from different backgrounds and different religions to come together and celebrate warriorship. It’s a pretty daring thing to do.
Well said.
Yes, Trungpa Rinpoche was very very exceptionally special!!!!! We are so lucky to have actually been able to study his teachings and to have known him.
I noted with interest that Stuart Lord, the new President of Naropa Institute, is not only a former Associate Provost of Dartmouth College but a Christian minister (graduate of Texas Christian University with graduate degrees from Prnceton Theological Seminary and Union Theological Seminary).
We have talked about the issue of whether Shambhala Buddhism is a move toward a more narrow vision of Shambhala — or articulated more aggressively — whether it is a move toward sectarianism.
I appreciate the different views on this point. And, when I think about, I worry about some of these issues. However, I don’t think that Shambhala was ever a path that attracted many practicing Christians. This might be more because some of the fundamental tenets of non-theism are uncomfortable for Christians if not incompatible with Christianity. It always took a very unusual Christian to be able to connect with this path — and it still does.
In CTR’s time, Shambhala was (wrongly) viewed by CTR’s Buddhist students as Buddhism lite or as thinly disguised a “gateway” for students to find a Buddhist path. I think these days Shambhala Buddhism is wrongly viewed as being parochial. I would wager that there are more Christians practicing Shambhala Training these days than in CTR’s time. And I think the Shambhala Centers are more tolerant and open minded. Much of this is due to Sakyong Mipham’s leadership.
Dear Ashoka,
Here we go again. It’s funny that I often feel provoked to respond critically to your posts on this site, when we might like each other in neutral face-to-face circumstances. In any case, we don’t know each other, but find each other on opposite sides of a generational and political fence.
Your post on April 7th, 2009 7:51 pm, appears to be in response to previous posts by Tsondru Garma and John Tischer. Tsondru on April 6th, 2009 11:47 pm said:
““On April 4th, on the occasion of Parinirvana Day, Sakyong Mipham Rinpoche addressed the Shambhala community worldwide from New York City. Sakyong Mipham Rinpoche proclaimed Parinirvana Day to be “a day of remembering and gratitude” both for the Vidyadhara, Chogyam Trungpa Rinpoche and for His Holiness Penor Rinpoche. . . .
“Now , apparently, the one day there was to practice together in the Centers and relish and share with others in that precious, unique and particular CTR guru energy world wide; has been expanded to include the Sakyong’s own teacher. It really made me sad to hear this because it will no doubt lead to further changes in the forms of Parinirvana Day. It will change the nature of the way that day is experienced for hard core CTR students who want to practice with others in their Centers.
“Why can’t we just have another parinirvana day for Penor Rinpoche?”
John Tischer on April 7th, 2009 7:11 pm wrote in response to Edward:
“But it’s hard, as a potential member of the Shambhala kingdom, to feel gratitude and remembrance for someone I haven’t met and who is not my teacher, ”
I agree, Edward, so perhaps you’ll understand the sentiments of those of us who were close to Trungpa, Rinpoche and have little connection to Penor Rinpoche when a celebration to the memory of the Vidyadhara is co-opted in the way described by Tsondru.
Ashoka, you wrote on April 7th, 2009 7:51 pm:
“Co-opted.
“I was there. I led the Sadhana of Mahamudra. Damn can’t you guys give yourselves a break for 10 seconds? The beginning of the talk was about fulfilling the Vidyadhara’s aspirations through exertion. He talked about how he was a mahasiddha, and what that meant. I mean, does every paranirvana day have to be this somber Catholic lamentation of how much we miss Chogyam Trungpa? That doesn’t sound like the conduct of a warrior to me. It reminds me more of how we idolize tragedy in our culture, building monuments and dedicating days to everything painful that we experience, solidifying it into a massive edifice. The Irish have it right, you celebrate at a funeral. I think he would have wanted it that way.”
I’m afraid I must unpack this practically line-by-line. I don’t think you mean,”can’t you guys give yourselves a break for 10 seconds?” That is, I don’t think you’re concerned about us giving ourselves a break, but about us giving SMR a break. Being able to express ourselves on this site IS giving ourselves a break – a break that you are not giving us, which I’ll explain in a minute.
You say, “The beginning of the talk was about fulfilling the Vidyadhara’s aspirations through exertion. He talked about how he was a mahasiddha, and what that meant.”
Here’s what a friend wrote to me about SMR’s talk: “I watched the talk and actually felt rage and sadness at the audacity of SMR. . . . His words for his father seemed gratuitous and brief, especially compared to the sentiments and time devoted to Penor Rinpoche.” We do notice these things, Ashoka.
But the real put-down comes when you say this: “I mean, does every paranirvana day have to be this somber Catholic lamentation of how much we miss Chogyam Trungpa? That doesn’t sound like the conduct of a warrior to me.”
I think this reflects a fundamental and perhaps intentional misinterpretation of why students of VCTR want to get together to recite the Sadhana of Mahamudra on his Parinirvana Day. It is to connect with his energy through that sadhana. It has nothing to do with “somber Catholic lamentation.” Characterizing it in this way denigrates the motivation to connect with and celebrate our guru’s energy.
I think your disdain for our devotion and commitment is political and, indeed, shameful. I think your whole post here is political – the opposite of anything I have understood to be spiritual. It is responding to expressions of pain and sadness with put-downs that demonstrate no sensitivity to the principles of lineage and devotion that are at the heart of what VCTR students received and practiced.
You seem incapable of compassionate comprehension of the shock of having Parinirvana Day – this “one day … to practice together in the Centers and relish and share with others in that precious, unique and particular CTR guru energy world wide” – co-opted. Yes, having to share OUR Parinirvana Day with SMR’s guru is actually galling. It IS co-optation, and a slap in the face to VCTR loyalists and the Vidyadhara himself. But I think the only explanation for the “audacity” of this move is that it is political. You, Ashoka, are expressing the power dynamics of SMR and Shambhala International, which seem to want to exclude not only VCTR students but to displace VCTR himself – the originator and author of everything SMR inherited. It’s truly Shameful.
The essence of the cause of the division within the sangha is that expressions of devotion for VCTR are met with ridicule and dismissed in many ways. This is a political response that says, ‘You don’t matter. We have the kingdom now and we can do what we want. Forget lineage and devotion and get with the new regime.’
It’s as though a monastery has been taken over by a different lineage, and the monks and nuns have been told to convert to the new lineage after spending their lives building and maintaining the monastery for their own lineage – or leave. The new lineage mouths words of kindness and compassion, but demonstrates no understanding or compassion. It is brutally political.
We may have been dispossessed, Ashoka, but you are not going to shut us up. We have our own networks.
As my friend also wrote about the burning down of Prajna: “If related to as a dream, I would say the Vidyadhara has spoken. Prajna as wisdom, prajna as mandala, fire, Vajrayogini – on the day after the Parinirvana….. He’s not happy about something…..! Let’s see what they do with the insurance money.”
The Vidyadhara may have the last word yet.
Amen, sister, AMEN.
Thanks, Suzanne……J.T.
History of Shambhala Kingdom in Three Easy Steps
1. Chogyam Trungpa, Rinpoche
2. Yada, yada, yada
3. 25th Rigden
Suzanne, thank you so much for saying this so clearly and forcefully. This is what I wanted: a good strong articulated response. …and I agree wholeheartedly with you about the politics. Things really do seem to be moving in a “certain direction” now, more quickly than the slow steady pace of an elephant.
Thank goodness for this forum!!!! (“I would not feel so all alone, everybody must get stoned…. (or something like that.”)
Sometimes logic surpasses reason.
Okay.
Don’t give yourself a break.
Really though on some real real real.
You need to stop thinking that anyone, whether it’s me or anyone else, are expressing anything but their own genuine feelings. I don’t get a check cut from Shambhala, Suzann. I am telling you how I feel. There are no power dynamics here. I am not looking for validation. Every time I post on this site I go, “shit, I went and did it again.” I do it for the love. For The Love. And also boredom and neurosis and all that too, but mostly the love.
Respeck.
also.
Chogyam Trungpa Rinpoche is the greatest love of my life.I think about him every day.
“Keep on quoting Chogyam Trungpa to Will Ryken, Edward.”
“There are no power dynamics here.”
Ashoka, for me anyway this is the problem. Didn’t Trungpa Rinpoche speak about “buddhadharma without credentials”? Aren’t we supposed to “trust the principal witness”? Personally I’ve come across your first sentence above in many different guises within Shambhala. The message it always seems to convey is, essentially: do not dare criticize those in power.
This is the power dynamic that does exist within Shambhala. Whether or not you get a check I don’t think concerns anyone here at all, not me anyway. And I believe you when you say you are expressing your own genuine feelings.
Dear Ashoka,
You are a ‘prince’ and a tulku, born to the ‘first family’ and raised within Kalapa Court. You have occupied a privileged position all your life. Therefore, pulling the rank card may be so natural that you do not recognize it as such. This is a common blind spot among the ‘aristocracy’ and it has perpetuated class conflict and war (and wasted human potential) around the world and across many centuries. But even if you are unaware of your own rankism, others notice it, with various effects. I have even called you on ‘rankism’ within this site.
Rankism describes what happens when a person demeans or ridicules others in order to ‘put them in their place’ in the hierarchy of power, especially when those others dare to criticize those in power. It is a common political ‘power dynamic’ that has been used within Vajradhatu/Shambhala since well before the Vidyadhara died, but he himself, in my experience, did not use it and did not approve of it.
Wikipedia says, “Rankism is a term coined by physicist, educationalist and citizen diplomat Robert W. Fuller. Fuller has defined rankism as: “abusive, discriminatory, or exploitative behavior towards people who have less power because of their lower rank in a particular hierarchy”. Fuller claims that rankism also describes the abuse of the power inherent in superior rank.”
As a prince and a tulku, you carry an authority within the Shambhala mandala that you have not yet earned. In Tibet, from what I’ve heard, tulkus have to earn their status through rigorous training. You are probably entering or going through your first Saturn return, which is when a person is initiated into his/her karmic responsibilities.
I would like to respectfully suggest that you can earn your inherited authority by taking responsibility for achieving nondual, unbiased awareness, which means purging or transcending rankism, and becoming a true Bodhisattva dwelling in the “great equanimity free from passion, aggression, and prejudice.” In that way, you would truly serve the kingdom.
Bowing respectfully,
Suzanne
Hi. I’ve been studying Buddhism and trying to better understand and follow the path. A long challenging (but joyful) road for sure. I’ve had some exposure with a Shambhala group in my community. My knowledge of the history of CTR and SMR is clearly limited. There are lots of postings on this site that are quite interesting and informative and I wouldn’t question for a second the sincerity of any of the participants. But there is a disconnect for me that I’m trying to understand. The concepts of non-self, emptiness and impermanence are challenging (for me at least) but I think I’ve made some progress in applying such concepts to my own existence. In doing so, I find that compassion and serenity naturally arise, that is, when I “get it” and make the connections. Brief and all-too-fleeting moments of wisdom perhaps. With that as my frame of reference (albeit limited), when I try to make the connections between those concepts and the “back and forth” I’ve been following on this site, it seems to me that something isn’t quite right. The adversarial tone of the discussion, this old vs new and us vs them tone is confusing to me. Respect for those that have wisdom and compassion is a good and natural thing but aren’t we all just small pieces (but important) in the whole flow of things? When our own ego naturally builds up a distinct identity that we protect with passion from anyone that might challenge it, don’t anger, jealousy, and bitterness intensify? Doesn’t the same thing happen if and when we take the same approach in vigorously defending someone else, be it CTR or SMR? Maybe I’m missing the point, but is somebody supposed to “win” the debate? I admit that I don’t get it. On the other hand, if the idea is to partake in the wisdom of our teachers and not only “talk the talk” but “walk the walk”, is there any purpose for the competition between the groups? If the wisdom of the teacher brings you towards realizing wisdom yourself, how can you possibly lose? Can anyone or anything posssibly take that away from you? Again, I’m just a novice, an outsider looking in, and my observations are simply that, nothing more. Peace!
dionysus:
The adversarial tone of the discussion, this old vs new and us vs them tone is confusing to me.
Probably a good way to understand this discussion would be, if you haven’t done so already, to spend 10 or 20 years heavily involved in a practicing sangha, participating with other practitioners on a daily or weekly basis. It’s a wonderful opportunity to put the teachings you admire into practice in real life-terms, you know, in relation to other human beings and so on. Also, getting married if you’re not already could be a good step, if you’ll forgive me for saying so. My old teacher said that a marriage is one of the best “caves”.
Having done some of these things myself, I personally don’t feel that human emotions, or disagreements, are “bad” or “wrong” or need to be suppressed for the sake of putting on a good appearance. Sometimes disagreements can be part of an intelligent, creative process, helping one to “wake up”.
If we woke up in the morning and forgot to open our eyes, we might bump into our dresser or the wall. That conflict or collision would be great though, because it would be a reminder not to go through our day blind. We could open our eyes.
If you are attracted to Chogyam Trungpa Rinpoche, you might enjoy reading “Dragon Thunder”, which would give a historical background for how VCTR’s teachings came into being.
I would quote something Trungpa Rinpoche once said about the role of “negativity”, but I don’t want to be accused to quoting him again without the proper license.
I am one of the students of Chogyam Trungpa Rinpoche and don’t feel drawn to the Sakyong as my teacher. Neither do I feel that the Halifax Shambhala Centre is a suitable place for me to learn and practice. At the same time, I have no problem with the Sakyong being who he is and establishing the kind of organization that suits him.
So far, I have been paying dues, attending occasional teaching sessions and even volunteered to be a meditation instructor at a seminar a year or two ago. But I doubt that I will continue to participate much longer. At this point it’s clear that the emotional gap between me and the Shambhala organization is growing wider with each passing year — probably for many of the reasons mentioned by Ms. Duarte and others.
It’s obvious that the organization and its leadership have changed in a way that doesn’t draw many early students in. That isn’t really surprising. Things change. It’s simply what’s happening.
The fact is that many of us no longer belong in the Shambhala organization. There really is no going back to whatever it is we imagine it should have been. So, let’s stop complaining about it. It serves no useful purpose. Why not drop it and go on with our lives?
Howard
Edward…I appreciate your feedback. To be sure, I wouldn’t suggest that emotions (good and bad) are not part of life or something to be denied. Eyes wide open to be sure! And I’ve been in the cave of marriage, with its ups and downs. Certainly, denial of emotions isn’t a practical way. When a negative emotion arises (or even a positive one), my challenge isn’t to negate it, but rather to step back and better understand its source and keep it in perspective…don’t exaggerate a “bad” emotion or get too carried away with a “good” one. That’s just my view. No judgement meant on my part, simply observation. Thanks again for the feedback. Howard, I’m not familiar with the history, but your conclusion makes sense to me. Peace to all.
On the other hand, I’m getting tired of much of this discussion. It’s been extremely helpful to me to participate in some of these discussions, to help me see certain things more clearly and help me make decisions, but I feel almost no desire to engage people in a me-versus-you discussion any more.
I think when someone like VCTR had feedback he wanted to give someone, he could often wait a long time until just the right moment when the person was open to the feedback. Maybe there’s something to be said for that.
My main interest is in interacting with students of VCTR, considering his teachings with others people, and maybe helping preserve those teachings in some way– ideally in a fully effective way.
If there’s been a take-over in the Shambhala Lineage, it seems that the take-over has already been completed. On a karmic level, the people responsible for that have their karmic debts to pay, perhaps, but for me to try too hard to undo something that’s already been done could be an act of aggression in itself, which would be creating its own karma. As Mr. Szpakowski has pointed out, we have to ask ourselves “what is there to protect?”
I had an interesting metaphor I was going to share here, about the name “Shambhala Buddhism” that SMR coined, but I decided not to post it. I guess I’ll share it anyway in case it’s useful to someone else’s process. I wrote this a couple days ago:
I have an image in my mind of George W. Bush a few years back, announcing that he’s signed an executive order changing the name of the country, to the United *Christian* States of America.
Then I imagine people that weren’t Christian getting all uppity about it, and Bush’s spokesmen saying on various media shows “what’s the big deal? We have not exported any non-Christians. At this point it’s just a simple name change. As of today, you’re still welcome to stay here. Please stop complaining– it’s unbecoming of a Christian.”
“The founding fathers were Christian, so really, the country has been Christian all along, hasn’t it? We were just too shy to say it publicly. If you don’t like the changes– if you’re still clinging to old ways–, you’re free to go. Bush is very proud of the new changes, and is confident they’ll usher in a new age of prosperity and happiness, along with the additional changes he’s planning to reveal down the road.
“What’s more, are you really sure you should be questioning these decisions? Isn’t that kind of… unpatriotic? Isn’t it a way of questioning how much Bush’s supporters love this country, questioning their devotion? I’m not sure I’d do that if I was you.
“Some of your comments might even be considered acts of *aggression*. I don’t think I need to say more about how the Bush administration looks on acts of aggression.”
“If there’s been a take-over in the Shambhala Lineage, it seems that the take-over has already been completed. On a karmic level, the people responsible for that have their karmic debts to pay, perhaps, but for me to try too hard to undo something that’s already been done could be an act of aggression in itself, which would be creating its own karma.”
I think for me the crucial issue is harm. Is anyone being harmed by policy / approach / situation A, B, or C? If so, I feel bound to help correct that situation or approach, and relate directly and personally to the harm caused.
Has harm been caused by certain ways in which Shambhala conducts itself? Oh, absolutely. The power dynamic operating within Shambhala has caused some astounding harm to others. And as things stand now, it will certainly continue.
This is my own main interest here. I can’t really contribute much on the question of faithfulness to VCTR’s vision etc, since I am of the generation that has only known the Sakyong (although I came to the dharma like so many through VCTR’s books and poetry). Reading others’ insights on these subjects has been very enriching. But the main issues for me are: power, collective ego, mechanisms of corruption, and the unique ways in which religious teachers and institutions can cause very deep harm to others.
It saddens me so much to say it, but I think your metaphor does point to some real parallels.
Just wanted to add, in case they are of interest, a few passages from an essay I discovered online awhile back entitled “The Three Yanas of the Dorje Kasung”. Perhaps most people have already seen it. I don’t seem to have the name of the author–if anyone can add that, feel free to do so. But a few of the thoughts expressed in there seem to be most applicable to what people have been discussing:
“It could be said that theism denies that connate quality of reality. In simplest terms, the theistic view might be that most things exhibit coemergence, but God does not. God is straight wisdom, good, holiness, etc. (This implies that there are also all-ego, all-bad entities and situations.) Then quickly follows the corollary that God’s institutions, God’s bureaucrats, God’s car, etc., are similarly without stain. When bureaucracies, institutions, corporations and people try to see themselves as all good, no bad, that movement of mind is fundamentally the same–theism–as in the literally religious context. Something important to watch for is that the theistic approach will use rationalization, employing profound principles, vision, dharma, scripture to justify all its aspects as wisdom, including those that are actually confused, ego based. ”
“Another offering to the world would be to look at the wisdom and ego aspects of bureaucratic patterns such as those manifested here. A common bureaucratic tactic to avoid dealing with an uncomfortable issue is to deny it for as long as possible and when that is no longer possible, to delay meaningfully commenting on it, extending the period of delay for as long as can be done. At some point then, the position becomes that we should move on and quit dwelling on the past, put it behind us. The result is that the problem never has to be dealt with. SI does that.”
“Something else helpful might be our development of a style of speech about political and devotional matters that acknowledged the blended wisdom/ego nature of everything that arises in the mind of a person or institution. Listen to the texture of how we now talk about ourselves as a group. It is astonishingly self-congratulatory: wonderful this, all-glorious that, the specialness of the group “me”. In very private contexts one can hear more frequently of late comments along the lines of “X sounds like he’s been drinking the Kool Aid.” If an individual talked about himself personally in the same way we self-praise our group, the individual would be seen as pathologically narcissistic. But a basic unconscious tactic of theism is that by lavishing praise on the higher entity while maintaining outward personal humility and subservience, we are actually aggrandizing ourselves, the trusty devotee. This easily leads to the arrogance and self-absorption that people outside our sangha often notice about us. In such an atmosphere, it is easy to see how one of our leaders could come to feel he was beyond the laws of karma.
A non-theistic style of speech might state up front the ego possibilities as well as the wisdom potential in whatever we are teaching about or describing. Without that, it is very easy for power to avoid hearing the truth. If a non-theistic style of expression did become vital and genuine, people outside our group might sense that there was something unique and worthwhile here as we engage the wider world.”
Interesting and frightening metaphor (United Christian States)! If such a thing actually occured, the tragedy would be that those with a different belief set probably wouldn’t have the power and ability to peacefully secede and pursue their own path. Alternatively, if they DID have that power, wouldn’t they just do it and rejoice in the joy and purity of their path? After independence was gained, I think the founding fathers had more important things to deal with, like writing the Constitution, than continuing to debate about the wrongs of the Empire. Hopefully, there isn’t a War of 1812 looming on the horizon! No big deal right? Just do it. Peace and good luck to you all!
Suzann, et al. It isn’t ‘rankism’ to interpret the teachings of the Vidyadhara differently than yourselves. Your comments along those lines I think are both related to remarks I’ve aimed at Edward, who I’ve been discussing these issues with since before this site existed. Edward has done three levels and has never been in the physical presence of the Sakyong, let alone gone through a Kalapa Assembly or an MPE. You can’t on the one hand say that your interest is in connecting with the Vidyadhara through his students, and on the other hand never give yourself the opportunity to meet a Will Ryken, a teacher whom I’ve been fortunate to have encountered in my lifetime, and from whom I have learned much about the Vidyadhara’s heart and mind. I may have phrased it unskillfully or been overly blunt, but that was the place from which that comment arose. Perhaps we all suffer from fixed mind to our own extent; that is after all a hallmark of the dark age, and if aspiring warriors like Edward feel so alienated from the environment that they’ll never have a chance to meet teachers like Will, that is a shame, but I suspect (and have seen) that more often than not, that is not the case.
Never, in a million years, would I think it is my place to suggest that criticism of those in power, whether teachers in the Shambhala mandala (or anyone else for that matter), should be free from criticism or doubt. There are many sangha members and teachers that annoy the hell out of me, at times to the point of making it difficult for me to remain in the environment. But love for the Vidyadhara, and my own personal connection to him, provides enough inspiration for me to deal with the irritations and fear that i experience in that regard. My own personal readings of his teachings have led me to believe that part of the path, is dealing with sangha, as challenging as that can sometimes be. My experience has also been that often, my complaints about others have more to do with my own confusion than anything inherent or existent about them. But, I understand, for you and some others that post here, there is a sense that the lineage itself has become corrupted and that what is now being taught would not have lent itself to the approval of the Druk Sakyong. I think that there is just going to be disagreement in that regard. We could sow the seeds for warfare based on that disagreement, or we could try to have some respect and compassion for one another. All things considered we share more in common than not in regards to our situation. We need to be conscious about how we view ourselves and one another, lest we begin to draw battle lines. I have not experienced, since I became a tantrika (and before), any obstacles to embracing and attempting to deepen my study of Chogyam Trungpa’s body of teachings that have not been self-imposed. I don’t know how it is for others; that is only my own experience. I would venture to guess that for many students of both the Vidyadhara’s and the Sakyong’s, love for the Vidyadhara provided the basis of their openness to the Sakyong’s leadership. Many of them, who have been friends, teachers, and guides to me and other aspiring warriors, would probably tell you that they benefited from that openness.
But, again, not everyone shares the same karma, even if we do share the same root teacher and are attempting to walk a similar path. I hate to make this comparison, but there are elements here that remind me of the cycle of blame, sadness, and aggression that is playing itself out between Israel and the Palestinians. There is no room for dialogue when people question the validity of each other’s experience; this only sets off a cycle of defensiveness and hostility. Only, in their case, real lives and families are at stake. We have to be better than that; these teachings are about being better than that, so we could perhaps one day be of service to a world that is literally drowning in these cycles. We have to look upon each other with more compassion than that, and if we’re not capable of doing that, perhaps the problem is not external.
Dear Ashoka,
I’m sorry to say so, but I think you have missed the point when you say, “It isn’t ‘rankism’ to interpret the teachings of the Vidyadhara differently than yourselves. Your comments along those lines I think are both related to remarks I’ve aimed at Edward . . . . There is no room for dialogue when people question the validity of each other’s experience; this only sets off a cycle of defensiveness and hostility. . . . We have to look upon each other with more compassion than that, and if we’re not capable of doing that, perhaps the problem is not external.”
Please re-read your own comments on April 7th, 2009 7:51 pm, and my comments on April 11th, 2009 1:02 pm.
The point is that the political response to complaints by VCTR students about changes in policy is not compassionate. As Domchö wrote on April 12th, 2009 2:07 pm, quoting “The Three Yanas of the Dorje Kasung”:
” A common bureaucratic tactic to avoid dealing with an uncomfortable issue is to deny it for as long as possible and when that is no longer possible, to delay meaningfully commenting on it, extending the period of delay for as long as can be done. At some point then, the position becomes that we should move on and quit dwelling on the past, put it behind us. The result is that the problem never has to be dealt with. SI does that.”
You say, “I understand, for you and some others that post here, there is a sense that the lineage itself has become corrupted and that what is now being taught would not have lent itself to the approval of the Druk Sakyong. I think that there is just going to be disagreement in that regard. We could sow the seeds for warfare based on that disagreement, or we could try to have some respect and compassion for one another.”
Parinirvana Day for the Vidyadhara – a 22 yr tradition of devotion for the Shambhala mandala’s founder – has been abruptly changed to include SMR’s guru, with whom most of us have no connection and with whom the Vidyadhara had no connection. This has been shocking to students of VCTR. You have dissed complaints and sadness about this. Who is sowing the seeds for warfare?
Suzanne D.
I have not heard that April 4 has been permanently changed to include memorials for Penor R. Have you? Has anyone heard this?
What I heard is SMR expressing sadness at the recent death of his teacher.
That doesn’t bother me — and while I understand people’s irritation at having their day interrupted to listen to a teacher they don’t want to listen to, I don’t understand why that would bother anyone else.
“Suzann, et al. It isn’t ‘rankism’ to interpret the teachings of the Vidyadhara differently than yourselves.”
It is if the difference in interpretation is official, which it is.
One of the first things the Vidyadhara warned us about at the First Vajra
Assembly was the danger of editing the teachings, which means selecting
certain teachings over others because they support one’s personal agenda.
There was only one talk in which the Vidyadhara even hinted that Shambhala and Buddhism were the same, and there are countless references where he said they were unique paths. For example.
This is not hang-wringing because things are different now. This is the difference between what is true and what is not….what VCTR said and what he didn’t say.
“There is no room for dialogue when people question the validity of each other’s experience.”
Exactly. That’s why the only dialogue that exists takes place outside the Shambhala.org mandala.
Jim,
On April 6, I printed this quote from the latest online Shambhala Times:
“On April 4th, on the occasion of Parinirvana Day, Sakyong Mipham Rinpoche addressed the Shambhala community worldwide from New York City.
Sakyong Mipham Rinpoche proclaimed Parinirvana Day to be “a day of remembering and gratitude” both for the Vidyadhara, Chogyam Trungpa Rinpoche and for His Holiness Penor Rinpoche. ”
So that is where the original information came from. You may have missed that, it has been a long string of posts since then. I didn’t hear that from his talk, but I may have missed it since I was so busy trying to deal with my own annoyance and not get freaked out during a practice session.. Maybe I misunderstood something, but the quote seemed clear enough.
I guess I missed that — or didn’t remember. It’s not completely clear to me that this is intended as a change in future years — but perhaps it is.
I think Prajna burning is a profound display of impermanence within the mandala of the Guru’s brilliant wisdom mind. May those wisdom flames burn unceasingly and consume all of the confusion, hatred, jealousy, pride, passion, duality, and sectarianism of the three times — our own and others — in Great Purity and Great Equality!
Sarva Mangalam
My dear ones, I absolutely have no business in trying to approach all of you, my sangha, that have been my hero’s all along , and to some extent stilll are. As all of my old dog companions know, I have been and maybe still am one of the untameable beings.
This is and has always been for the sake of all sentient beings. The command received by Sakyong Mipham Rinpoche as in the command of peace, bliss, and blazing luminosity, is no different from the command that we all received.
I truly believe that what we all must do is to follow the command of our guru and follow that command to the utmost, and to stop trying to convert others to our path, The Sakyong is following the command of his Guru, Trungpa Rinpoche. If your command is different , then follow that command. there is no need for you to try to undermine that witch you have no understanding of. Saraha once said anytime you think you have figured it out , thats not it. The pain that touches me the most is the pain of realising that we are all to smart for our own good.
In our logic we are always right and in that rightness we will always remain in samsara.
Please do not buy into your logic or the logic of others remain the lonely Rhinocerous. Do not trust, do not trust
The warriors path as all of you will so skillfully point out to each other ????
Your path is your own. just do that . at this point there can’t be any right side or wrong side there is only your very own path let it guide you to that witch is. I am because you are.
Will,
I think I understand you. You understand your loyalties in certain ways. From that point of view, It is fine and beautiful for you to feel this way, (taking a dharmic stance) yet choosing one side of the situation to be on. We are all on our own journey, of course…. but for some others, as you said, each has their own way and needs to be the principle witness. This site is a great place to associate with other “outsiders.” of all kinds and varieties. and to problem solve, when possible. Too bad it has to be so argumentative, at times. And not so easy to not react or over react in our dialogues over things so dear to all of our hearts (on both sides.)
ALSO I have a dear friend who is a kasung, and he feels similarly to you, in terms of his oath is to protect the King or lineage, or something like that.. So I suppose it all depends on how that is defined. But in any case, I got the idea that it may be more difficult for Kasung to pull away from their king, since they have taken a vow to protect him. I repect that.
Thankyou
I appreciate Will’s post and agree with Tsondru that Will’s point of view is certainly valid. However, to say other’s don’t understand because we don’t see things the same way is not…is denying other’s critical intelligence….
which the Vidyadhara would never have approved of.
There’s a difference between “how do you see things differently?’ and
“how can we get you to see things our way?” The latter, for me, is the tone of the apologists for the current administration. SMR is not the real subject of the debate, I think.
I don’t think anyone is trying to “undermine” anything here. And “loyalty” takes different forms. Loyalty is towards the path and the instructions of the teacher, not to any organization or administration. I think this is a source of some of the confusion here.
“In CTR’s time, Shambhala was (wrongly) viewed by CTR’s Buddhist students as Buddhism lite or as thinly disguised a “gateway” for students to find a Buddhist path. I think these days Shambhala Buddhism is wrongly viewed as being parochial. I would wager that there are more Christians practicing Shambhala Training these days than in CTR’s time. And I think the Shambhala Centers are more tolerant and open minded. Much of this is due to Sakyong Mipham’s leadership.”
I was contemplating this paragraph by Jim Wilton in regard to a local group in my own area which allows people to practice Buddhist ngondro under the guidance of a teacher which is similar to the way that SMR is teaching Shambhala Buddhism. I was wondering if this way of practicing of ngondro is a Nyingmpa way (the group here is Nyingmpa) of doing things
As the group here is doing ngondro this way perhaps it would have implications for the way you could have a purely Buddhist ngondro but also based by time and not counting………this way the paths could be kept separate but they would be more applicable to busy westerners.
I feel also there has to be a dialogue with other faiths to perhaps further the Shambhala teachings after they have come to a stop with SI because they are not going to become Buddhist. Could there be a way of devising a possible ngondro for these groups with our assistance.
Also arent we all really making assumptions about other faiths who attended the past Kalapa Assemblies – it would be good to hear from them on this site.
Incidentally if you want to google the group here it is called Khandro Ling and is near Macclesfield UK. Someone just gave them the centre and did it up for them – strangely the colours used resemble our centres. If anyone round the world wants to use this centre – you just need to cover the expenses -everything otherwise is done by donations only – I think it would be good if SI could do some events by donation only in these hard times.
Best
Rita Ashworth
“I feel also there has to be a dialogue with other faiths to perhaps further the Shambhala teachings after they have come to a stop with SI because they are not going to become Buddhist. Could there be a way of devising a possible ngondro for these groups with our assistance.”
Ngondro seems to practiced solely by Tibetan Buddhist practitioners as preliminary practices for receiving empowerment into a tantric sadhana. The word itself means to go before or precede.
While other religious traditions undoubtedly have methods for wearing out self-clinging and self-cherishing, devising a special ngondro practice for a Jewish or Christian meditator, for example, would be meaningless since they don’t have sadhanas to practice afterwards.
Well, in the old system, people were given Werma Sadhana without ngondro, (unless I have forgotten, since it was a long time ago). So introducing Shambhala ngondro is perhaps an example of inserting another hurtle for non Buddhist faiths.
I’m afraid that changing things as they are now is hopeless, in any case… and the best people can do is to find ways to save Trungpa Rinpoche’s teachings, to practice together, to be able to commiserate about the losses, and to discuss related ideas: Doctrinal issues, inspirations, etc.
RFS is the ONLY forum that I really appreciate and feel I “belong” to on a deep personal level. (however, not having signed on any dotted line…) The poetry idea was good, but it seemed like our contributions were still our particular comments and views about the current situation. “We” are perhaps dealing with deep sadness and bitterness, I think!!
Personally, I feel that even though the changes that have been made by SI have been a complete tragedy, nevertheless I have tried to develop a view to accept what is happening.
As a practitioner, when dealing day to day with SI people individually, I feel the necessity to go beyond even the “lack of critical intelligence,” horrendous “how money is spent” problems, and political problems that seem to be there, and just view the whole thing as another body of practitioners who are human with their own view and their own devotion. Acknowledge that they feel like a really valid community of practitioners. I have to respect that.
When I am with a good friend or co worker who feels inspired by SI, I let them know of my own preference… or perhaps, even not. It sometimes seems irrelevant, since their own inspiration is so strong, and they are doing so much for others within that system. …And since we are working together; we already have common ground. No need to stir that up with them.
Of course on this forum, dissenters from the dissenters seem like people who want to enter into debate.
I’m not sure why I had to say all this, it sounds sort of simple minded…… some sort of affirmation, I guess. but thank you for listening!! and also for all these interesting and intriguing posts.
with love,
Tsondru….
Re my last post – yes I was somewhat clutching at straws to try and meld other religions into SI…….but I still think there needs to be a dialogue that is more structured going on with other faiths if some people do decide to do all levels but dont become Buddhist. Presumably people who do the levels are going to be doing meditation continuously so who knows ’something’ may happen in their connection with ultimate reality. Then it would be a question may be of the whole thing being validated by a guru/teacher.
Wasn’t the Werma Sadhana ‘revealed’ to Trungpa at Casa Werma in Mexico…….in this context revelation happens in all religions perhaps something will evolve. I dont know perhaps the Sakyong can not apprehend peoples experiences as Trungpa did this may be one reason why we have Shambhala Buddhism.
Its interesting that Trungpa Rinpoche had close contact with other religious faiths both in the UK and America and that indeed in America he was quite close to Gerald Red Elk – perhaps there are similar practices to Buddhism within Native American religion. For example I have watched ‘A Man call Horse’ a movie that Trungpa quoted from in relation to the Sun ceremony which shows the religious experiences a person goes through to become a chief. One way of maybe keeping people within SI would be for a commission to be set up to commune with other faiths about the shambhala teachings in the spirit of ecumenism perhaps something could evolve from that.
Would love to hear any stories about Trungpa and his meeting with Gerald Red Elk -might be some pointers as to how different faiths can get along.
Best
Rita Ashworth
Rita,
you said: “One way of maybe keeping people within SI would be for a commission to be set up to commune with other faiths about the Shambhala teachings in the spirit of ecumenism perhaps something could evolve from that.”
I think that is a realy great proposal!!!! Perhaps it could even be officially presented to Richard Reoch??
also, thank you for the comments about Trungpa Rinpoche’s involvement with Native American Spirituality, and your mentioning of that movie, A Man Called Horse. (I must see that!!!)