This was a thread I missed when I was away. Interesting to read this all in the light of this summers teachings by the Sakyong.

I liked what Frans had to say – sincere and touching on a lot of topics.

It really isn’t fair to either the Vidyadhara or the current Sakyong to compare them. They did arise at different times.

I had no idea the sangha supported a large house in Europe for the Druk Sakyong that he went to only once. Was this as debated as the Sakyongs house in halifax getting a reno? (he is there many months of each year)

Andrew – I liked what you said about how the Vidyadhara wouldn’t fix things that went wrong. hmm – food for thought…

I loved the info on the term – Vidyadhara – this is a good forum for discussion – thank you organizers.

I don’t feel like we are going down with the ship – but I do feel like those who don’t want to continue the study of the Shambhala teachings are free to not to that.

Membership is growing albeit slowly. People are more clear about what that entails and are encouraged to make that choice carefully.

these ‘optional’ practices are still practiced and practiced well. Just look at the land centres which are committed to offering group practices of chakrasmava, four roots and vajrayogini, mahamudra and even Vajrakilaya. In halifax we have regularly 4 or 5 feasts a month. All qualified practitioners are ALWAYS welcome to come and practice these regular practices.

the debate about buddhism/shambhala aside. I do feel like we are creating a ‘community’ a society. One that can support many views and is open to criticism. and is truly becoming the culture that the shambhala teachings encouraged – neither a tibetan remake nor a monastic enclave but the unique western blend that is Mukpo and all of you are family.

here is another optional practice.
http://shambhalatimes.org/2009/07/02/scorpion-seal-opens/

but we may have missed the boat.

ki ki so so

Here is a link with further info
http://benchen.org/benchen-phuntsok-ling/news/95-tara-mantras.html

Sarva Mangalam

Tashi

All the best

Tashi

p.s: That the regent refers to CTR in a letter from the eighties as Vajracharya doesnt refute that CTR was called the Vajracharya from only 1974 nor does it refute the fact the CTR was called the Vidyadhara from 1985.
But of course I could be completely wrong . So if you find out more about it please let me know.

As I mentioned earlier, I’ll do more research to fact check the matter. You brought up a legitimate point on the matter of accurate translation.

I didn’t realize you knew Sherab Wangchuk so long. It was a privilege for me to have his assistance. However, that he was not present at an event does not indicate that he would not have knowledge of it.

From what I see in the 1985 chapter of Jeremy’s book, there are no references to Tenga Rinpoche or the use of the term “Vajracarya”. Using that term did *not* begin in 1985.

Here is a link to a letter written by Osel Tendzin in 1980 looking back on events in the early 1970s where he describes Trungpa Rinpoche as Vajracarya:

http://www.chronicleproject.com/stories_1.html

(“I met the Vajracarya on a Sunday afternoon at his home in Four Mile Canyon. I was wearing a red ruffled shirt and red velvet pants, a la L.A., and I was sporting long hair and a beard.”)

Other first hand participants have told me about using the term prior to Karmapa’s 1974 visit.

Thanks again,

Gregg

Just wanted to start a new thread on the concept of loyalty………seen this concept coming up in brush paintings by the Sakyong and also in the following film by Zhang Yimou ‘Curse of the Golden Flower’ about the corruption of a Chinese Court a thousand years ago in China (you can find it on utube -reference given below. ) The translation of the chinese characters stresses loyalty and family values……….How do people see the concept of loyalty in the terms of Shambhala teachings – has it been imported from Chinese philosophy or is it inherent in the Tibetan/Indian teachings ———–and of course how do we relate to this concept in the West-

Got the dvd -because capitalism is collapsing over here somewhat……..a firm, Woolworths with over 30,000 employees has just gone bust…..its as if Zellers or Canadian tyre disappeared from Canuckland (or have they disappeared already?!)……….definately people feeling weirded out about the collapse of banks etc in GB -what does this bode for the Shambhala teachings………..hope people can check the reference to the film below …..Zhang Yimou is very expressive about how the Chinese see the world…………..(now got the film Mongol -will have to look in to that too)

Best

Rita Ashworth

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1 year ago 65,543 views janisjai

Also Jeremy Hayward in his biographie states that the title Vidyadhara was used from 1985 on the recomondation of Kyabje Tenga Rinpoche:
http://books.google.com/books?id=oFKM49xRwZwC&pg=PA360&vq=vidyadhara&dq=vidyadhara+shambhala&ie=ISO-8859-1&output=html&source=gbs_search_s&cad=0

I think also in the book about Trungpa Rinpoche by Midal Mr. Mermelstein is quoted to the same effect as Mr. Hayward.

Also Sherab was not travelling with his Holiness and Rinpoche when the event occured that Rinpoche is referring to, but he was in Boulder with Rinpoche when Rinpoche recommended to call CTR the Vidyadhara so maybe that is why he mixes it up.
The event of the bostowing of the title by HH is also mentioned in one of the early Garuda magazine issues.

All the best and thank you for your efforts

Tashi

That’s interesting… from what I understand, Trungpa Rinpoche was referred to as the “Vajracarya” prior to Karmapa’s visit. This is what Judy Lief told me and I’m pretty sure I’ve seen materials copyrighted prior to 1974 with the title Vajracarya. most of my dharma books are in storage right now so I can’t look up those references.

Lama Wangchuk translated for me in Nepal and he’d been Tenga Rinpoche’s attendant for about fifteen years prior to that meeting.

I’ll follow up with some scholars that I know that can make a definitive call for me. Thanks for raising the issue,

Gregg

Tashi

David Rome: Last point mentioned in the will is the national assembly. Is national assembly outgrowth of dekyong council?

V: Yes.

DR: At the point where we are dealing with very large numbers of people, could representatives be selected by vote?

V: Fine.

DR: So the people should have an opportunity to express themselves?

V: Yes.

DR: So the committee approach described in Court Vision would still apply for a transitional time following your death?

V: Yes.

DR: What should we do with this will?

V: Clear up any confusion.

DR: It seems pretty clear, if we just add some points from what we have just discussed.

V: Fine.

DR: Shall I share this conversation with Privy Council now?

V: Would be good.

DR: How long are you going to live?

V: Quite awhile.

so voting for representatives is definately mentioned – whereas SMR seems to be against voting………..I think voting is an essential part of any
Buddhist/Shambhalian society – indeed the Dalai Lama has recently allowed elections by Tibetans-the Sakyong included in this of course, for a Tibetan government in exile…………and now the Dalai Lama is only the spiritual head of the Gelugpas…………I am really trying to understand how the Vidyadhara would have gone forward with the voting aspect in an enlightened society ……..would be great if we could get some more information on this aspect of Shambhalian/Buddhist politics…………..

………..obviously a lot of people are against the way SMR has changed the teachings in SI but to me what matters most is the way things are governed so that all views are represented in an open way…………even in a monarchy there has to be give and take between the monarch and the subject…………..re this thorny subject of monarchs and government people may want to watch the Devils Whore on channel4.com which is a drama about the English civil war which also raises questions about the monarchs power and the subjects duties. Of course I know the conception of the King in Shambhala has a cosmic significance……….but then in countries that have always been monarchies you can get some inkling of the concept of King and Queen. Also I believe there was a Christian group some time in English history that held similar concepts of the King and Queen theme in our religious lives………..would welcome any info on this if any one has some………….think it was banned by Catholic church tho…………….and then of course there is the Xtian concept of the Kingdom of God……….would be interesting if we could hear some Xtian Shambhalians discuss this on this site.

Best

Rita Ashworth