Chögyam Trungpa Legacy Project–Update
September 20, 2009 by Andrew Safer 
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Report by Andrew Safer
The publication of On Different Views and Paths, an interview with Richard Reoch, President of Shambhala International, which appeared on both the Radio Free Shambhala and Shambhala Times Web sites in July, inspired a follow-up interview with Carolyn Gimian, Director of the Chögyam Trungpa Legacy Project (CTLP).
The following exchange from On Differing Views and Paths prompted this writer to ask Ms. Gimian to provide an update on the mandate and activities of the Legacy Project:
Radio Free Shambhala: The real question is: how are the teaching stream and legacy of Trungpa Rinpoche going to continue?
Richard Reoch: I’ve been in discussions with Carolyn Gimian since the beginning of the Chögyam Trungpa Legacy Project about the importance of that initiative. The analogy we have used is that the Legacy Project is like a presidential library, so things don’t end up moldering and being lost. I’ve had some initial conversations with some of the longer-term students and acharyas about how to create an identifiable and helpful framework so no one is seen as being on one track or the other, or as renegades which is antithetical to the long-term survival of the lineage.
The following Q’s and A’s are excerpted from interviews conducted with Ms. Gimian in late July and early August.
Vision and Mandate
Q: In 2007, the vision of the Legacy Project was to provide “a very large tent of dharma space as vast and open as Trungpa Rinpoche’s mind”. Is that still the case?
A: Almost without exception, all of Trungpa Rinpoche’s students and students of Shambhala internationally feel a tremendous connection to the Vidyadhara and his teachings, which leads to a sense of us being choicelessly a family and community. We are all united by our love for the Vidyadhara. Sometimes our connection also leads to people feeling either that they are being recognized for their connection or maybe they’re not, and conflict also arises out of that. I think the idea of a huge tent is that it transcends divisions as much as possible and provides a larger space for appreciating and propagating his teachings, which is in the spirit of how he taught.
Presidential Library
Q: Mr. Reoch spoke about a presidential library. What is meant by that?
A: In the United States, starting with Franklin Delano Roosevelt, the presidential libraries provide a place where the vision of the president is kept intact. This is necessary because each administration goes in a new direction. For example, the Kennedy Library is extremely different from the Bush Library. Presidential libraries include museums, exhibits, audio-visual archives, programming, and extensive oral histories. You need a place where the vision of the president is kept intact. For example, there’s a huge oral history project at the Kennedy Library, which is a collection of taped memories of President Kennedy, based on interviews with his colleagues, family and friends.
If we had a physical location for an institute dedicated to the Vidyadhara’s vision, we would have a place where people could come and practice and study and experience the Vidyadhara’s teachings. We could have a shrine room because he was a great contemplative teacher. There should be a library of his own books, as well as books and texts he had a connection with, reading rooms, and a place where people could watch videos and listen to his talks. We would have a museum that would showcase some of the sacred objects he owned as well as show us something about his life from seeing his desk, his suits and ties, and many other things. In the case of the Kennedy Library, Kennedy had a connection with Hemingway so they have a Hemingway room at the Kennedy Library. We could have, say, the archives of Shibata Sensei, and his life would be celebrated in some way, as well as collections for other senior teachers who were contemporaries or students of the Vidyadhara, and archives and records of members of his family. It would give you a sense of the fullness of the world in which he was teaching.
Q: What are some of the projects that the Legacy Project is planning?
Comprehensive Virtual Archive
A: We would like to help develop a comprehensive virtual archive in partnership with the Shambhala Archives and the Chronicles of Chögyam Trungpa Rinpoche. The Archives has completed the digitization of almost all of the Vidyadhara’s teachings that exist in audio format, which is 3,000 talks. Libraries of about half that material have been supplied to a large number of Buddhist centers—mostly Shambhala Centers. Naropa University also has this library of close to 1,500 of the Vidyadhara’s seminars and talks, and Jamgon Kongtrul III’s monastery in Pullahari, Nepal has also participated. Thanks to donations from many centers, as well as several private donors and the Shambhala Trust, 25 centers on four continents have libraries in the form of CDs. All of the major land centers have this library
Now that we have the digital files, we can think about organizing the material and making it available online and in other ways. The centers that have CDs know the title of the seminars, where they took place, and when, but a lot of people can’t use this effectively without more information. They need to be able to search on keywords and to have a synopsis and indication of how to use the material. For example, there are a few seminars on the Battle of Ego…What are they about? We need a synopsis. We’re starting to do some work on this, thanks to a small donation to evaluate the project. To do it properly (to make the CDs keyword search-enabled) would require a budget of at least $25,000. That’s probably low. This doesn’t include the money for the programming, software, server, etc if we want people to be able to access material on-line.
I don’t think most people want the MP3s for 3,000 talks on their hard drives, but they’d like to have access to the material when they want it. Working with the Archives and the Chronicles, we’d like to form a library that would provide membership online, for a membership fee of something like $8 to $10 per month, or people would pay what they can. Members would access all this material on-line and pay a separate fee if they want the recording as an MP3. That way, you could take your MP3 to the gym!
Editorial Apprenticeships
Another important project that’s in the discussion phase is to develop a program to train young people as future editors. There are probably 40 to 50 more volumes of original material by the Vidyadhara that need to be edited and published. There’s a great deal of material on the great forefathers of the Kagyu lineage, for example. To start, we might invite a group of 25 or 30 young students to come together to study the Vidyadhara’s teachings for four to six weeks, possibly during the summer. Some of the instructors would be senior editors who had worked with him. They would present the material from their point of view so the young person could learn to approach it as an editor. Presenters might include Judy Lief, Sherab Chodzin, David Rome, Sarah Coleman, me and others—especially the editors of Rinpoche’s work during the last ten or fifteen years of his life. At the end of the period of time, we would elect a small group to become editorial apprentices (depending on the available funding). The Nalanda Translation Committee has a program where they fund several apprentices. We might model what we do on their approach. We would like to pay the young people a stipend, and they would work for a couple of years with the editors on books. We’re thinking of having up to six young people in the group. We might also have a dharma art apprentice or apprentices for other aspects of the Vidyadhara’s teachings. The point would be to enable the next generations to really begin to take responsibility for his teachings.
A lot of this is in the discussion phase. In fact, a lot of it is just in my head! We don’t have a formal endowment fund, which is really what’s needed to ensure the dharma legacy of Chögyam Trungpa remains available to the future. As it stands now, people can include the Legacy Project in their will, set up an endowment within their own estate planning, or set up their own trust.
There really should be an endowment fund to ensure future editorial work on the Vidyadhara’s books and other projects. There’s a gap between the funding that can come from sales of books and what’s necessary to raise so that people can continue to do this work for future generations. Trying to do it on a cost-recovery basis is nuts; well, it’s unlikely to succeed. Buddhists traditionally have a practice of funding the teachings as merit. Some communities—particularly in Asia—are able to produce books at no cost to the reader and give them away. I wish we could do that with the virtual library and some other projects. If there was a big donation, a really big donation, that would make this possible. Occasionally, we have had patrons who underwrite the cost of a specific publication…A donor paid for many copies of the Sadhana of Mahamudra to be placed in Shambhala Centers, for example.
Chögyam Trungpa Annual Lecture
We have also been discussing the idea of hosting a Chögyam Trungpa Annual Lecture. We were very fortunate to receive the teaching gift from Dzongsar Khyentse Rinpooche’s visit to Halifax last year. Unexpectedly, he donated his whole teaching gift to the Legacy Project. The Chögyam Trungpa Annual Lecture would mark this generous gift. Someone who has a connection to Trungpa Rinpoche, such as another Buddhist teacher or a student of the Vidyadhara’s, would be invited to give the lecture about something related to his teachings, or something that came out of his work. We are asking Sakyong Mipham Rinpoche to give the first lecture. This could start in 2010. By the way, I don’t think the Sakyong knows anything about this yet, so he may be a little surprised by this idea.
Root Text Project
We support the work of the Shambhala Archives in many ways, as well as the editorial efforts of the Vidyadhara’s senior editors. We have a fund to help support editorial work. Right now, we’re emphasizing donations to the Root Text Project—the amazing efforts Judy Lief is making to edit the Vidyadhara’s teachings at seminary, and condense and organize these in an appropriate way so these books can be published by Shambhala Publications, and made available to the public.
I am going to work with Judy for about six months next year, and I’m very excited to be able to contribute to this project in some direct way. I recently spent about a week working with her. I was absolutely stunned by the depth and the breadth of the material, which begins to shine through when the editing is polished and the various talks are merged. There are close to 400 talks that she is working with in the three volumes. It’s truly amazing work. I think the publication of this three-volume work will establish Chögyam Trungpa as one of the most important scholars of the Buddhist tradition in the 20th century. I think it will shock people who have viewed him as a great popularizer but haven’t understood that he was actually transmitting the heart of his tradition and many of its details as well. I’m so thrilled that Judy is doing this work She has such a thorough understanding of the material and she is such a highly trained editor. Many others are supporting her, especially Ellen Kearney. Shambhala Publications and Shambhala Media are supporting this work, as are many individual donors. But Judy really deserves our thanks for undertaking and persevering in this project.
What Activities are Outside the Mandate of the Legacy Project?
Q: When Mr. Reoch was asked how the teaching and practice streams of Chögyam Trungpa will be kept alive, he mentioned the Legacy Project. What aspects of the continuation of his teaching stream will NOT be covered by the Legacy Project?
A: I think the Legacy Project can support a lot of different efforts, but I don’t think it will be the vehicle for preserving the teaching stream and practice streams that you’re describing. I think the Vidyadhara was such a vast person who influenced so many people that I also don’t think any one institution is going to be able to lay claim to him completely. He empowered his son, the Sakyong, to continue to teach, obviously, and that sense of lineage is very important.
I firmly believe that many students of the Vidyadhara—disciples and other people he influenced—have received important transmissions from him and that all of us have a responsibility to carry that forward. Almost every senior student—and there are hundreds—have a very deeply felt sense of wanting to preserve the Vidyadhara’s legacy. In the Lojong teachings, there is a slogan that advises us to hold the principal witness. You have to trust your own integrity and sanity. In the last many years with the Archives and the Legacy Project, I’ve realized there are these jewels everywhere, which are the human beings who have extraordinary ideas about what it means to pass on Rinpoche’s teachings. Again, I don’t think any organization can contain all of that.
He gave so many teachings that were applicable to the time when he gave them. I really do believe that many were like terma—little time bombs going off as time goes on. None of them are trivial. Of all the talks he gave and all the times I heard him speaking about the dharma, I can’t think of one instance that was trivial. His contribution was so vast, it’s really important to try to be sure that the breadth of his work and the depth of it is available, both for us and the future. Rinpoche’s students were so fortunate, we’ve gotten so much…The big issue now is not so much do we have enough; it’s more, how can we share it with the world?
The Vidyadhara developed many important forms,dathun, for example. I don’t think it existed until he developed it. We have to be sure that these forms survive. How do people communicate what they actually know? For myself, I’ve been at times really lazy. I felt this stuff is all out there, we just have to keep the machine rolling. I don’t think that’s true anymore. Even if it were a terribly well oiled machine, I would still have the responsibility to work with the teachings he gave me and communicate whatever I understand. There’s always a danger a lot could be lost if people don’t step up. It’s a big wake-up call.
I was recently reading a seminar given in 1974 by the Vidyadhara on Jamgon Kongtrul, about what is the genuine contemplative approach: bringing the teachings together with experience. If we don’t do that continually, we can have something that looks good but actually has no depth to it: there’s no there there. Jamgon Kongtrul said if you approach sharing the teachings with others like being a milkman, you’re really missing the point. If you just take the bottles of milk and sell them, you haven’t actually milked the cow yourself. You haven’t drunk the milk.
Budget
Q: These are very ambitious projects! What sort of budget is the Legacy Project working with?
A: The unaudited budget for 2008 was $43,000, which was huge for us. More than one-third came from Dzongsar Khyentse Rinpoche’s gift. The ongoing donations we can count on are between $12,000 and $15,000 a year. This year total revenue will be closer to $25,000. Obviously, to fulfill our big plans, we will need more than this on an annual basis.
Q: Does Shambhala International donate to the Legacy Project?
A: There are no direct donations, but there’s a lot of in-kind support—services we have access to.
Trungpa Teachers
Q: It seems that a big part of preserving the Vidyadhara’s teachings is to have teachers who teach what he taught. Can the Legacy Project assist with this work of training teachers?
A: The Legacy Project doesn’t necessarily have a direct role here. Yes, it’s a very important area. I feel that as a group all the senior students of the Vidyadhara need to be respected more than they are. As a mark of respect for the Vidyadhara, it’s important to respect all of the aspects of his teaching. That would include the Buddha, dharma, and sangha principles. Regarding the sangha—his senior students—I think we were incredibly well trained. Trungpa Rinpoche’s students had a very good education. He taught us to think as contemplative people, to apply the teachings to our experience, to understand what things meant, not just to memorize a lot of categories. He worked hard to make people think about how the dharma worked for them individually. That needs to be respected. Where that is not happening, it’s very sad.
Texts
Q: Another important element of keeping the Vidyadhara’s teachings alive has to do with having access to the texts (such as the sadhanas).
A: Access to the texts and similar materials does not fall under the purview of the Legacy Project. You’ll have to ask the Nalanda Translation Committee about that.
Transmissions
Q: It would seem that preserving the unique way that the Vidyadhara gave actual teaching transmissions, such as pointing out instructions, is another key element of keeping the his teachings alive…
A: The Vidyadhara gave teachings that were very important to different lineages, to different Buddhist teachers and their students. For example, his teachings on Zen and Tantra have been well received in the Zen world through the recent book The Teacup and the Skullcup. One reason it’s important for the Legacy Project to be involved in seeing that this root material is preserved is so that many people can benefit from his teachings. However, we’re not in the business of giving pointing out instructions, abhishekas or distributing restricted materials. Traditionally that has to come from an association with a root teacher.
Most Concerned to Protect
Q: What is the aspect of the Vidyadhara’s work that you are most concerned to protect?
A: I’m greatly concerned that we don’t have everything he taught transcribed. At the same time, if we lose his voice, if we lose the audio recordings, we won’t have a total record. And then, in the long run, I’m concerned that he gave a lot of teachings on Mudra Space Awareness, Mudra Theatre, and Maitri and many other unique applications of the teachings to Western culture. A lot of the early material is not very available to people..
I’ve been listening to the Jamgon Kongtrul seminar I mentioned earlier, how Jamgon Kongtrul went around Tibet and received the transmissions and practices for something like 108 different contemplative schools. A lot of them were on the verge of going out of existence because nobody had practiced these teachings in so long. He kept the material from going out of existence by getting the transmissions himself, and practicing, and sharing with others. I believe that much of the Rinchen Terdzo is a reflection of his efforts.The Vidyadhara’s work is so vast that we are in danger of losing some of it. Some parts are hardly practiced anymore. Sometimes people think that, for the moment, a particular teaching is no longer relevant, but that’s really not the case. People have realized that the teachings he gave to Mudra Sapce Awareness, for example, are related to Dzogchen Ati teachings. And they may have much to offer to actors and others in the theatre. If we don’t keep them alive, we’ll lose that whole stream of teachings he gave.
Whither Independence?
Q: I understand the Legacy Project was planning to be independent from Shambhala International…
A: Yes, we had discussions with people within Shambhala International moving toward independence. The original reason for that, in part, was to have the Legacy Project reaching really out on a large scale. There are many people in the world—artists and others—and people from many different organizations who appreciate Trungpa Rinpoche’s teachings. That includes people at Naropa Institute and many other Buddhist teachers, not just Tibetan Buddhists but Zen teachers and communities, Theravadin teachers, and many others. But it became clear that the Sakyong and his family and Shambhala International wanted to have the Legacy Project remain within Shambhala.
Kalapa
Q: What does it mean to “come under the protection and blessings of Kalapa”?
A: I don’t know entirely. Practically speaking, I’m working fairly closely with Richard Reoch, in the sense that he and I are working on a two-year plan. I’ve been talking with him about the Legacy Project for three or four years and he has shown an interest for a long time. As far as I can tell, Kalapa is still in the forming stages, so it’s hard to say. I hope it means that the Kalapa Council will lend their support to the efforts of the Legacy Project.
Protection and Change
Q: On Radio Free Shambhala, “Tsondru Garma” posted this comment: “Can the Legacy Project really be in danger of being changed while protected? That’s a scary prospect indeed. I sincerely hope that the Project is not in any danger of revisionism. Too painful or difficult to even imagine.”
A: I think the best protection of the Vidyadhara’s legacy is to take the biggest view. That really can’t be corrupted because it’s beyond any individual interpretation. We need to remember that the Vidyadhara was Padmasambhava for our age. If you keep that in mind, that tells you that whenever people are trying to make a decision about what to do, it should be made from that highest viewpoint. Small mindedness is going to come from many corners. Whatever my role may be, I have to deal with my own small mindedness first, which is usually the bigger obstacle, rather than what anybody else is going to foist onto me.
Whatever may happen to the Legacy Project, the actual legacy of Chögyam Trungpa is incorruptible. I believe that with all my being, or non-being.
Thanks, Andrew, for this opportunity to say something about the Chögyam Trungpa Legacy Project. Also, may I mention that we are in the process of redoing our Web site. Right now, it’s not much. But I hope the new site will be up in about a month. You can find the web site of the Legacy Project at www.chogyamtrungpa.com.
Carolyn Rose Gimian is a senior editor of the work of Chögyam Trungpa, as well as the director of the Chögyam Trungpa Legacy Project and the Director Emeritus of the Shambhala Archives. She edited The Collected Works of Chögyam Trungpa and Shambhala The Sacred Path of the Warrior and other titles, including the forthcoming Smile at Fear: Awakening the True Heart of Bravery. She lives in Halifax, Nova Scotia.
*Photo of Carolyn Gimian by Marvin Moore
This is timely, as something odd struck me this weekend about the CTR article in the new Shambhala Sun.
In the article “Facing Yourself”, which is an excerpt from Smile At Fear, Trungpa writes: “People may use tranquilizers or yoga to suppress their fear: they just try to float through life. They may take occasional breaks to go to Starbucks or the mall. …”
My understanding of the “new” texts that are appearing, such as Smile At Fear, is that they are transcriptions of talks by CTR. As such, the reference to Starbucks struck me as anachronistic. CTR passed in 1987, and Starbucks, while it began as a company in Seattle in the 1970s, did not become a national, commonplace phenomenon until the 1990s.
Which made me wonder: How much “cultural updating” is happening to CTR’s texts in this process, and what sort of guidelines does the Legacy Project follow in this regard?
Thank you Andrew and Carolyn for this wonderful interview and discussion about the Chögyam Trungpa Legacy Project. Reading it I was reminded of what Khandro Rinpoche implored us at a meeting with meditation instructions at the Berkeley Shambhala Center about 15 years ago:
You who knew Trungpa Rinpoche have to tell people what he was like! It is your responsibility. Otherwise they will never know.
Responding to Dave above: I edited the book and it was my call to change Dairy Queen to Starbucks for this one situation. It is rare for us to update references, but in the interest of making the material accessible, for some books, I do make this kind of change. The SUN’s editor, Melvin McLeod, also questioned this choice — we’ll see how it plays — I’m pretty much a purist on these things, but obviously not in this case. In the Editor’s Afterword to the book, it mentions that some references were updated, to let the reader know.
Carolyn — thanks for the clarification.
Many thanks to Andrew and Carolyn for this interview on the Legacy Project. I am encouraged and pleased to hear about CTLP’s plans, such as training apprentice editors and hosting an annual CT lecture, and of course the Root Text project is very important.
I was struck by this, however: “[W]e had discussions with people within Shambhala International moving toward independence. The original reason for that, in part, was to have the Legacy Project reaching really out on a large scale. . . . But it became clear that the Sakyong and his family and Shambhala International wanted to have the Legacy Project remain within Shambhala.”
Of course, I couldn’t help wondering WHY. Ownership? Control? Competition for market share and donations?
I started thinking about the donor base that used to exist when Trungpa Rinpoche was alive. I’ve heard that some of the students of VCTR are now big donors that keep SMR and SI afloat. And of course there are ‘new’ students of SMR who are also big donors. But since I have known the former and don’t know the latter, I thought about the former. I wonder whether the donors who were students of VCTR feel conflict between preserving and extending VCTR’s legacy, and/or supporting SMR/SI/Kalapa. I also wonder about the extent to which the ‘carrot’ of the Scorpion Seal draws funds from donors’ pockets away from the Legacy Project. I wonder whether those donors ever think about the relative merits of getting the Scorpion Seal for oneself and preserving VCTR’s legacy for all humankind in perpetuity. It does seem that, traditionally, merit depends on motivation to a certain extent.
Just wondering. . .
Yes – I think you should remain independent of SI -there are a lot of people out there who are not students of the Sakyong -how will these peoples voices be heard as equally as SI’s in the Legacy Project. Yes
SI could give money to the Legacy project but it should still be independent -it should not be the predominating voice in the Project.
Something that came to mind re institutions in the UK like this is the National Trust which is open to everyone as indeed many of the great libraries in the UK such as the British museum.
Academically too I think its not right too that one voice should have control of such a project aswell -you have to allow for diversity of opinion being voiced/written on CTR’s teachings.
Best
Rita Ashworth
Stockport UK
Carolyn,
Please, don’t “update” Trungpa Rinpoche’s talks. It immediately deprives them of their trustworthiness. Anybody who reads a so-called trasncript of the Vidydhara mentioning Starbucks is automatically going to doubt the validity of the rest of the article. People can deal with a little anachronism. Leave the man’s words alone and let them speak for themselves. You’re cutting off your own legs here.
With only the best wishes for your work,
Zer-me
I think “Dairy Queen” would still hold.
….it’s an anachronism…sure….but I think it’s more honest and I think people
of culture would appreciate the authenticity….to get too pedantic about a
petty point..
….actually, “Dairy Queen” is more poetic, to my mind, than “Starbucks”.
I’m revealinging my whole bias here….please forgive me. J.
It would be amusing to read one of CTR’s talks in a new book, and see a reference to the U.S-Iraq war, or to WAMU gettng bought out, or to the Obama administration.
Actually I hope that doesn’t happen. I would probably stop buying new CTR books if that happened.
CTR’s words, just as they were given, are more valid for today’s people than many people realize, in my opinion.
Gotta run, otherwise I’d say more about that…
There’s an update on the section of the interview above labelled Kalapa, in the Governance Update that comes with the June 2009 Kalapa Council minutes:
But then the plot thickens:
Link to the Kalapa Council minutes page: http://www.shambhala.org/members/governance.php#smr_council_minutes
Direct link to the Governance document:
http://www.shambhala.org/members/files/pdf/Governance%20Update%20June_09.pdf
Yeah. I think updating is a huge mistake. I love that you guys are working on preserving this legacy. I’m grateful for that. At the same time, I think this kind of editing undermines my trust of the teachings in a certain way.
Please don’t do that! Why would a topical reference make the difference as to whether a teaching works?! These teachings are perfect, to my eye. Adding updates in this way gilds the lily.
There is something that really disturbs me about the transfer of the Shambhala (formerly Vajradhatu!) assets and the Vidyadhara’s lineage objects to the Ladrang, as Mark quotes – “the texts, transmissions, instructions, relics, seals, sacred images, calligraphies, objects and properties of the Sakyongs’ dharma.”
It sounds like the possession of ALL the material aspects of the Trungpa lineage is now being transferred from Shambhala Intl. to Sakyong Mipham’s Ladrang under the name of the Sakyong lineage. Does this mean that everything that the CTR Legacy Project intended to protect and preserve will now become possessed and controlled by SMR? If so, more questions arise.
Is the Trungpa lineage now being referred to as the Sakyong lineage? Does that strike anyone besides me as questionable?
When they say “properties,” does that include real estate, as in land and buildings?
What if there are no heirs or successors to the “thrones of the Sakyong and the Sakyong Wangmo”? What if SMR dies without an heir or appointed successor? Does that mean that the Trungpa legacy and properties (real estate) could get absorbed into the Ripa lineage via the Sakyong Wangmo?
Does it mean that Sakyong Mipham or Sakyong Wangmo could sell off Chögyam Trungpa’s sacred (empowered) objects and properties to the highest bidder if or when the economy becomes completely dire?
Does it mean that Chögyam Trungpa’s legacy, other than his published books, could be completely buried and lost to future generations?
What exactly was the “unacceptable level of legal risk” that the Kalapa Council was concerned about regarding the transfer of assets and properties currently held by Shambhala to Kalapa?
Why are they transferring assets and properties from Shambhala (formerly Vajradhatu!) to Kalapa, and now the Ladrang, in the first place??? What is really going on? And why???
Ocean of Dharma “Quotes” of the Week
July 17, 2009
*{SENTIENT BEINGS ARE LIMITLESS}
Sentient beings are limitless;
We vow to save them.
Maybe the world is filled with aggression, passion and ignorance
And other inconvenient kleshas. *{, inconvenient emotions.}
Still the dawn of sanity, and being skilled in working with others,
Will continue.
Let us drive further,
And work harder with gentleness,
To proclaim the dharma *{, the wisdom of the Buddha,}
Throughout the universe.
If practitioners are like the bow,
Then devotion is like the bowstring.
Working for others with intelligence
Is the arrow, adorned with three feathers
Of threefold purity,
As well as the sharp point of doubtlessness.
Thus we perform such archery.
Let us go further, and shoot further.
Let us shoot in the atmosphere of the dharmadhatu. *{, the space of dharma.}
Excerpted, with slight changes, from “Sad Archer Shoots Happily by
Gazing at the Splendid Moon,” an unpublished poem composed 14
November 1981 at the Keltic Lodge, Ingonish, Cape Breton, Nova Scotia.
***
Here is another danger of embellishing Rinpoche’s legacy. *{The parenthetic passages are innovations by the editor.} This excerpt is just the first 22 lines, leaving out the final 34 lines from which the reader would have learned that this was a welcoming poem to the attendees at the Pan-Dharmadhatu Conference VIII.
Shortening the poem and so changing its context is already a major overhaul and misdirection of Rinpoche’s original poem, then re-naming the poem by its first line severs its connection to the original. Now the poem is someone’s version, not a “quote”.
With more than 600 poems to choose from, why not choose ones that “need” no tweaking that can be presented intact just as Rinpoche dictated it? There are so many.
Here are the concluding 34 lines:
…
We lost the great king.
But losing him gives us a chance,
To discover the majestic brand-new king.
Let us use our tears as fuel,
Let us use our sadness as strength.
This conference is based on
The feast of nondeception.
Let us not hesitate.
Let us go further.
You are invited and welcomed
To this Dharmadhatu Conference.
Let us meet our old friends
With a new gaze,
Let us see the new gaze
With old faith,
Out of this old faith
We find new feathers on our arrows.
Re-organizational process,
Or further sharpening the knife
On the kitchen table
Will take place,
In spite of temptations and hesitation.
Let us eat the tongue of deception,
Let us be intoxicated in genuine joy.
I am happy and sad
As much as you are.
Please come and join us,
Be our guest,
But simultaneously you are the host.
Let us spend wisely,
Let us cry with joy,
Let us be who we are
Without deception.
Welcome to the Dharmadhatu Conference.
[Editors may ask themselves would Rinpoche if he were alive today approve of this or that change as a sort of “reality-check”. Still, if an editor thinks “yes, Rinpoche would say ‘Okay’”, that’s noble but fallible since in the end it’s still only what the editor *imagines* Rinpoche *would* say; it’s personal. So-called poetic license is the poet’s alone.]
dairy queen, lolX2!… C’mon Carolyn, let’s call it IHOP. Even though I really really really like Dairy Queen (because 7 times out of 10 there was a putt putt golf course right next door.)
mini golf… rrmmph.
Brad thanks for the sense of humor. Actually, let’s just leave blanks in certain spots, so the reader can fill in what they like. Sort of like choose your own adventure, or reality television.
Google is a friend to everyone…
http://www.dairyqueen.com/us-en/
Dear Carolyn: I appreciate the devotion and exertion you have manifested in preserving the Vidyadhara’s teachings. However, although I am not very familiar with the world of publishing and don’t know what is customary, I really, really wish you wouldn’t change the actual words of the Vidyadhara, or even over- explain them, as I think has happened in some recent publications.
Coming from the Christian tradition, I wouldn’t want the Sermon on the Mount changed to The Address at the Shea Stadium or the miracle of the Loaves and Fishes amended to the Miracle of the Burgers and Fries. There have been recent books printed outlining the evolution of our current version of the Christian Bible, in which it is explained that, prior to printing presses, it was copied by hand over and over again by scribes who added and deleted passages according to their personal biases, so that it is now difficult to determine what were Jesus’ actual words. We can’t risk this happening to the teachings of the Vidyadhara.
His words are penetrating and powerful, and sentient being will hear them “in accordance with their capabilities and diverse aspirations.” If this process is to remain pure, his words can’t be filtered through anyone’s thoughts or opinions. That’s my bias.
Part One
I’d like to thank everyone for weighing in on maintaining the purity of the Vidyadhara’s words and dharma teachings. I’m touched and humbled by how much people care, and of course somewhat sheepish about what is obviously not a very popular decision. I’m referring here to Starbucks Gate or the Dairy Queen Caper, or whatever it might be called.
It strikes me that some of the angst and anger about the editing questions is also a reflection of people’s perception that the teachings are not being made available in an accessible and “unedited” fashion that honors how they were originally presented. I share a lot of that concern.
There is not much of a forum for students like myself to share/discuss what are training is and how we were trained. So a format like this one, although sometimes painful for someone (like me) on the hot seat, is very helpful. Reality test, communication with peers, lots of other benefits.
Next week, I’m doing an audio interview with the Shambhala Sun magazine on editing the dharma teachings of Chogyam Trungpa Rinpoche, and I hope that many of you will look/listen for that on the SUN website. I’m doing the interview early next week, I hope, and then it should be up on their site within some days, depending on the SUN’s editorial process.
It might be interesting for this discussion to know that the words of Chögyam Trungpa Rinpoche have been edited, and changed, since the publication of his first book in English, Born in Tibet. I don’t think there is a single volume published that contains “verbatim” teachings. Even the internally published transcripts of various seminars and the Vajradhatu Seminary are not verbatim. It would be very difficult for most readers to deal with a totally unedited transcript – unless they also have a tape to listen to. Then, things get much clearer.
The unedited teachings are of course extremely important; thus the huge effort to digitize Rinpoche’s audio lectures and provide libraries of the audio CDs to Shambhala Centers and others. The Shambhala Archives is still working on the last part of this project. As many of you may know, such importance is placed on trying to preserve Rinpoche’s actual words that we are making gold CDs and placing them in the Great Stupa of Dharmakaya at SMC.
While unedited transcriptions of Rinpoche’s talks are also of paramount importance, by themselves they don’t convey what you hear when you listen to his voice. In part, that’s why the editing is needed. Pregnant pauses, the emphasis placed on different words – lots of things affect meaning and how it’s communicated.
Part Two
A recent book I worked on that shows a light hand in the editing is The Mishap Lineage: Transforming Confusion into Wisdom, which is about the Trungpa lineage. Most of the book is based on a seminar at Karme Choling in Decmeber 1975. This was published earlier this year by Shambhala Publications.
For some years after the Vidyadhara’s Parinirvana, the Dharma Ocean Series was set up by Shambhala Publications to publish books based on lightly edited transcripts of his seminars. I think they’re wonderful. Judy Lief produced Transcending Madness in this vein. Sherab Chodzin edited Crazy Wisdom, Orderly Chaos, Illusion’s Game and The Lion’s Roar. Judy also edited a wonderful “Glimpses” series for Vajradhatu Publications, which uses a similar approach. There may be others I’m forgetting.
Unfortunately, these books don’t sell very well. The audience seems limited. They are not what one could call a commercial success. So without quite an expanded source of funding, there won’t be many books edited in this way anymore. But we may be able to expand the funding through a publications’ fund, which is a project of the Chogyam Trungpa Legacy Project. I think everyone – readers, editors and publishers – would be happy to publish more material with this approach, if we had the funding.
At the same time, many readers appreciate – at least at this time in history – books that have the questions and answers woven into the main chapter, books that do have some easy explanations for terms, books that are more highly organized and edited. I don’t personally think this kind of book is a perversion if the editor is careful to disclose their editorial process. Books like Meditation in Action, Cutting Through Spiritual Materialism, The Myth of Freedom, and Shambhala: The Sacred Path of the Warrior are all more highly edited volumes. Perhaps some of the current controversy arises because these were published during the Vidyadhara’s lifetime, with his participation. It is certainly a challenge to take this approach now, twenty years after his death, and some – among them some RFS commentators – may think it inappropriate. I wrestled with this, and I continue to vacillate in my feelings about it.
Part Three
As a point of interest, when I was working with the Vidyadhara on a Shambhala novel entitled The Memoirs of Sir Nyima Sangpo, he would dictate a chapter to me and ask me to read it back to him. I tried to read it verbatim, for all the reasons people have mentioned here. He stopped me, several times, and said, “I don’t want you to write down exactly what I say. I want you to edit it as you write it down and read that back to me.” I am not making this up. So, I had to do some kind of “simultaneous translation” as he was speaking, and there’s no record of exactly what he said.
I’m not saying this applies to anything I’m doing now, nor that it justifies anything. I don’t think there’s a justification for capricious changes nor that my choices are always the right ones for his publications. I’m sure there are many many mistakes made by all of his editors. I have always felt, nevertheless, that the veracity and force of his teachings comes through in all of the edited versions of them I’ve seen. There are different styles from different eras, but his voice and the power of what he is teaching goes way beyond the poor brains and pens of his editors. Again, I’m not saying this justifies us doing anything and everything.
Our errors will undoubtedly allow for future generations to re-edit and re-release material, which I think will be a good thing. On the other hand, the difference between the situation with Jesus Christ and the Bible and our current situation is that we are working very very hard to preserve Rinpoche’s voice and to have a complete unedited transcript of what he said. So any reader should be able to judge the editing and the teachings for themselves, if we are successful in saving his voice and a written record of exactly what was said.
We’re about done with the voice digitization – for the first time at least – but are far from having the unedited transcriptions. Time and money are required. Hopefully, we’ll get there in the next few years.
Part Four
One further point may be of interest: Currently Acharya Judy Lief is preparing – for general publication – three volumes of the root teachings of the Vidyadhara given at the Vajradhatu Seminaries. She is taking more than 400 talks and editing them into three volumes, which will be organized much as traditional commentaries are organized, with many headings, sub headings, etc. She is starting with the corrected seminary transcripts. Corrected means that she or someone else is listening to all of the original audio tapes and noting any inaccuracies in the original editing of the transcripts, which are being corrected. She is making an incredible effort to complete this project for publication by Shambhala Publications in 2012, the 25th Anniversary of the Parinirvana.
The Vidyadhara talked to a number of his editors and his publisher, Sam Bercholz, about the importance of this project and how it wanted it done. He wanted a scholarly publication that would show the breadth and depth of what he taught. So the books will not have questions and answers and several talks will often be merged into a single discussion of a topic, such as Kriya Yoga, for example. I’m going to work as Judy’s editorial assistant for six months next year on the Vajrayana volume and I’m absolutely honored to be helping her.
When talking recently with someone at Shambhala Publications about this project, I commented that you can tell exactly which parts of Jamgon Kongtrul’s Treasury of Knowledge the Vidyadhara was using when he gave certain talks. So he was transmitting the essence of much of this great work – but you can understand the teachings when he presents them. It’s truly extraordinary.
Simultaneously, DVD’s of the original volumes of Seminary Transcripts are being prepared, with all corrections, plus photographs and hopefully several essays on the history of the seminaries etc. Translations from the Tibetan of all of the original note cards of the Vidyadhara will also be published with the DVDs. The DVDs will be available through Shambhala Media and the Shambhala Shop. Perhaps we can also arrange for some audio CDs and MP3s of the original seminary talks to be released.
Thanks for the opportunity to share these rambling comments. I look forward to more discussion. I’ll post the URL of the SUN interview when it is available.
Online journalism provides the unique opportunity to engage with the interviewee, and I very much appreciate Carolyn’s willingness to engage here.
I also appreciate the fervor with which people have voiced their objections to Dairy Queengate, but I must say that I am waiting for the conversation to evolve from here to address other aspects of the interview that (to me) are as at least as significant. Two points come to mind…
1) When Mr. Reoch replied to the question: how are we going to preserve the teaching and practice stream of the Vidyahdara? and cited the Legacy Project, I began to wonder how much of what needs to be done to accomplish this actually falls within their mandate.
It seems clear, based on what Carolyn has said here, that a number of key areas are NOT covered by the Legacy Project, not the least of which is that there is a need for teachers who teach what the Vidyadhara taught. After all, this is an oral tradition. I can’t see his legacy being preserved in a living way without having “Trungpa teachers”. At present, acharyas who were students of the Vidyadhara are, of course, transmitting some of his wisdom because it’s part of who they are, but at the same time, a lot is being changed, and they are responsible for introducing and perpetuating the changes. If people are serious about maintaining the continuity of the Vidyadhara’s teachings, senior students of his need to be empowered to teach without also being required to blend in the revisions. Their teaching also needs to be free from the influence of “politics”.
It would be ideal for this to happen WITHIN Shambhala International, but so far I haven’t seen any indication that this is in the cards. The alternative, of course, is for it to happen OUTSIDE of Shambhala International. If this is the only option, it’s unfortunate because, by definition, this implies a scattering due to the lack of a container. It’s also ironic that the organization he set up to perpetuate his teachings seems to have become an obstacle to ensuring that his teachings–unadulterated–are, in fact, preserved and transmitted.
2. The other point that struck me through the interview and writing process is that Carolyn and her colleagues have wonderful aspirations for ensuring the Vidyadhara’s teachings last to benefit future generations, but there is almost no money to carry these activities out. If we compare how much is currently spent within Shambhala International, it’s a mere drop in the bucket. The priorities seem to be incredibly skewed. The notion that the Legacy Project can do all of this important work on a shoestring is, to my mind, preposterous. I’m looking forward to hearing other people’s views on this.
Carolyn,
Thank you for sharing all of this.
I love reading CTR’s books, even (or even especially) highly edited ones like The Myth of Freedom. And on rarer occasions I love listening to his raw audio lectures. They seem to affect me in different ways than the books.
In a way the books are more durable, more flexible and less tied down to particular personalities who were in the audience asking questions and so on, which sometimes comes through very strongly in the audio recordings.
So it is wonderful to have all of these things available to me, and I hope someday to be able to pay back this debt that I feel I owe.
Thank you, Carolyn, for sharing the inside story on the editing process of the Vidyadhara’s teachings. It’s all very interesting. I also appreciate your honesty and humility very much.
Andrew, thank you so much for sharing the points in the interview with Carolyn that stood out for you. I would like to reiterate (actually, quote) these points, which to me underline the need for Radio Free Shambhala:
1. [A] number of key areas are NOT covered by the Legacy Project. . . . [T]here is a need for teachers who teach what the Vidyadhara taught. After all, this is an oral tradition. I can’t see his legacy being preserved in a living way without having “Trungpa teachers” [who are not] required to blend in the revisions [and are] free from the influence of “politics”.
2. [If it happens] OUTSIDE of Shambhala International…, by definition, this implies a scattering due to the lack of a container. It’s … ironic that the organization he set up to perpetuate his teachings seems to have become an obstacle to ensuring that his teachings–unadulterated–are, in fact, preserved and transmitted.”
3. Carolyn and her colleagues have wonderful aspirations for ensuring the Vidyadhara’s teachings last to benefit future generations, but there is almost no money to carry these activities out. If we compare how much is currently spent within Shambhala International, it’s a mere drop in the bucket. The priorities seem to be incredibly skewed. The notion that the Legacy Project can do all of this important work on a shoestring is, to my mind, preposterous.
The first two points have been discussed repeatedly on RFS. The third point reinforces the second point, that “the organization VCTR set up to perpetuate his teachings seems to have become an obstacle to ensuring that his teachings–unadulterated–are, in fact, preserved and transmitted.”
Various student defenders of SI have vigorously disputed this point when it has been implied before on RFS, and our generational peers within SI have been silent for the most part. The SI students have mostly disappeared from RFS. Where are they now? Pretending not to listen in? Or has there been a decree that RFS is now beyond the pale?
I feel that, for record and for posterity, it is important that above points be stated clearly. That there is so far no clear, straightforward, satisfactory response from SI speaks for itself. Thank you, Andrew for stating these points.
Ocean of Dharma “Quotes” of the Week
November 6, 2008
FEARLESSNESS AND JOY ARE TRULY YOURS
When a warrior king presents a gift,
It *{could} be *{a} naked flame, which consumes the jungle of ego,
Or an ice cold mountain range, which cools the heat of aggression.
On the other hand, it could be a parachute.
*{One wonders whether it will open or not.}
There is a further choice –Thunderbolt:
Whether you are capable of holding it with *{your} bare hand is up to you.
So, my heartfelt *{child}, take *{these gifts} and use them
In the way that past warriors have done.
Unpublished poem, from the manuscript of CONQUERING FEAR: THE HEART OF SHAMBHALA, forthcoming in 2009.
***
*{Innovations of the editor}
This is an excerpt, not a whole poem; it’s the first 11 lines of a poem with its dedication and final 9 lines missing. Why? To use a poem with the word “fearlessness” in its title to coordinate with the forthcoming book Conquering Fear?
But this sort of tinkering, expunging half the poem and inventing new language actually misrepresents the true occasion of the poem, it misappropriates the poem, and it can no longer be called Rinpoche’s poem at all; it is someone’s *version* of Rinpoche’s poem.
Compare and contrast…
From Rinpoche’s unpublished poetry, raw and unabridged, with its dedication and its final 9 lines restored:
***
Fearlessness and Joy Are Truly Yours:
For the Vajra Regent Ösel Tendzin
When a warrior king presents a gift,
It should be naked flame
Which consumes the jungle of ego,
Or ice cold mountain range
Which cools the heat of aggression.
On the other hand, it could be a parachute,
Which questionably will open or not.
There is a further choice – thunderbolt:
Whether you are capable of holding it with a bare hand is up to you.
So, my heartfelt son, take them and use them
In the way that the past warriors have done.
You have the strength and capability as well as careful training.
Please cherish this standard of mine, the Tiger Lion Garuda Dragon dignity flag.
So you will accomplish maitri, karuna, joy and greater vision.
With the work that you have performed and lots of sacrifice for the sake of greater sangha,
And bringing about Great Eastern Sun for the enlightened society,
You deserve to live a thousand years –
Whether you like it or not.
You have learned a lot, performed magnificently.
I the humble Vajracarya, along with my wife, would like to wish cheerful birthday to you, my lord.
[I was once told that because Rinpoche is no longer here to authorise changes, it is vital to edit as verbatim as possible, excepting pidgin English. That would be a sound theory, if only it were the practice.
The translators have a committee and arrive at some degree of consensus. The editors could benefit from having a similar style of committee to offer honest advice such as Mr. McLeod’s.
Otherwise the next-generation of editor/interns may be taught that the literary legacy is plastic to be molded at their discretion – when the only real discretion editors have is to faithful accuracy.
Why change a word if a footnote will do?]
For information re ‘Trungpa teachers’ there is a new interview on the Dharmaocean website with Mr Ray entitled ‘Hard Questions for a Vajra Masters” – it’s a really good talk and there is printed transcript to copy.
I know its somewhat going off topic but will the new groups emerging be within the Chogyam Trungpa legacy project? It seems from what Ray is saying that more people are contemplating splitting off from SI. Difficult to know what is really going on in Boulder re the new take on the teachings – hope more people from Boulder contribute to RFS
Best
Rita Ashworth
Stockport UK
Re Carolyn’s description:
Simultaneously, DVD’s of the original volumes of Seminary Transcripts are being prepared, with all corrections, plus photographs and hopefully several essays on the history of the seminaries etc. Translations from the Tibetan of all of the original note cards of the Vidyadhara will also be published with the DVDs. The DVDs will be available through Shambhala Media and the Shambhala Shop. Perhaps we can also arrange for some audio CDs and MP3s of the original seminary talks to be released.
WOW! And audio of the Seminary talks would be huge! Reading the transcripts is one thing, but getting to hear the pacing of exchange and people’s voice tones, even the background noises, really brings those situations to life.
Very much looking forward to the coming attractions, including Judy Lief’s book.
Thanks much for all the hard work,
Gregg
A SECOND OPINION: For CRG & RFS
My serious concern and urgent caution were ignored twice, waved off like a fly. My worry for the integrity of the poetry was dismissed as a matter of no importance. But it remained like a seed on the ground waiting for rain and warmth and light.
This opportunity has presented itself. There are times one has to go public so the whole village can bear witness, so people can decide for themselves.
None of this stuff needed airing out in the public square. But faced with unilateral power, glibness and faraway stare, not even entertaining any change of heart, what alternative was there?
Now fate brings us face-to-face here at RFS. The sake of our bard’s legacy obliged me to flag your wrong judgment. Let others see behind-the-scenes how only approximate a posthumous poem is.
Your radical axe instead of a scalpel is counter-intuitive, given the mission is to preserve whole for the rest of time. But instead of a glimpse of the method to your madness, you offer only a firewall of bafflegab seemingly addressing and not really addressing but rather dismissing.
Now thanks to unforeseen events a second opinion has been heard. Let others voice their opinions now about how the poetry is rendered. May there be a lot of encouragement to hew closer to the letters of texts.
But where are all the RFS purists who are on a campaign to protect the purity of Rinpoche’s teachings? Does anyone else take the duty to protect VCTR’s legacy literally, or is RFS just an academic thought-experiment?
Suddenly five dormant posts spring back to life as the CTLP – Update crowd heads for the door. Is it too impolite to challenge authority? But isn’t that the raison d’etre of RFS?
Are RFS and its readers here to preserve our inheritance from Rinpoche, or not? Or is it just a sandbox and soapbox for ego to pontificate? You decide.
I can certainly agree that CTR’s poetry should be left alone. Poetry seems to me much more specifically composed. Talks could be edited for “clarity” but with the lightest of touches, otherwise the spector of revisionism rears it’s head.
Most of us are totally in the dark as to the extent of editing on ANY of CTR’s work, as that has been downplayed. We haven’t seen raw transcripts or anything of the sort…
Most of us are totally in the dark as to the extent of editing on ANY of CTR’s work, as that has been downplayed. We haven’t seen raw transcripts or anything of the sort…
I sometimes read the forward of CTR books, for instance the “Collected Works” that Carolyn edited. She talks about how heavily each book was edited, with some like Cutting Through Spiritual Materialism getting a lot, and others getting much less. It’s interesting to read the background she provides.
I also have a bunch of audio recordings that I purchased from http://www.shambhalashop.com . These are quite delightful, and the proceeds go to help protect the original recordings I believe.
I hear John Castlebury’s plea to “hew closer to the letters of texts,” especially of CTR’s poetry. As a student of English and German poetry in my college days, I learned to take every word seriously and study it for depth of meaning. That’s how literary people work with written language: attention to the precise meaning of each word; so we assume that poets labor over every word they write.
As students of CTR, many of us have a sense that he chose his words very carefully and was precise in his use of the English language, even when he was delivering a talk, because his words are so penetrating. So we treasure his words. We want to trust that the words in his books are his own, that every sentence is his own.
But how much did he revise and edit his own poetry? How much did he actually write down on paper, or was most of it dictated to and written down by his students? Was it then read back to him? Did he then say, ‘Change this word to that’? I don’t know.
He trained his editors and authorized them to edit him. I certainly have more trust in the editors he worked with than I would have in editors who didn’t know and study with him. I’ve done a lot of editing myself, so I know something about the challenge in that job. Some words are more important – carry more precise meaning, more weight – than others. Sometimes an editor has to correct and ‘smooth’ the language – especially the grammar – so it doesn’t stop the eye, so that the meaning is carried more effectively in a sentence or a paragraph. I guess I would call that ‘light editing.’
I would object to changing the meaning, but unfortunately, in the case of editing another’s words, meaning is often in the eye/mind of the editor.
I am grateful to all of CTR’s editors for bringing to publication so many of his books, so that his teachings are in the public domain. At the same time, I would also caution against revising for purposes of marketability. Illiteracy is on the rise and the market for books is shrinking at this time. That’s just something that has to be acknowledged, but I don’t think that quality should be compromised in order to sell books.
My 2 cents,
Suzanne
Shakespeare’s plays have been done in modern dress
and forms, but no one has dared to change his language into modern English. It just wouldn’t be Shakespeare. The same must hold true for VCTR.
When I wrote for a college newspaper, I never knew for sure what would appear the next morning under my by-line, once the editors had finished with my stories. The editors usually removed part of my story for space concerns, and often tweaked words here and there. Often I felt disappointed in the end result– the rhythm and flow of words was often changed.
But that was part of the price of doing business, and of having editors, and of having certain constraints to work under.
Our newspaper had a joke, or perhaps it was a motto: “All the news that fits, we print”
I find that really funny, but on a serious note it refers to the fact that there are other constraints that we work under. There is a certain kind of earth that we have to relate with when we bring down our ideas from heaven. An editor deals with certain constraints that a writer may be blissfully ignorant of.
Having said that, I would encourage people to continue to be skeptical of how CTR’s teachings are edited, and to continue to buy raw audio recordings of his talks and seminars, and to continue to support efforts to preserve those recordings safely.
I must be missing something here re: the discussion that has followed the revelation that Rinpoche was really in Dairy Queen, not Starbucks. I agree with those who are passionate about not changing his words through the editing process, but in this instance, we are not talking about any of his words having been changed, or even nuances of meaning having been altered. It’s about the name of a coffee shop, for God sakes!
Fair enough, we can make the mental leap that if the name of a coffee shop can can be changed, so can more significant elements of his teachings, but I think we need to remember that it’s just that–a mental leap. I’m not aware of instances where the meaning has been changed–not to say there are none, since I haven’t studied the original transcripts alongside the books. If someone can point to more substantive changes than the name of a coffee shop, we can advance this discussion. Otherwise, it seems like we’re beating a dead horse here.
Dear Andrew,
Yes, you missed something. But if you scroll up to chapter and verse examples on September 22 and 26, Ocean of Dharma “Quotes” of the Week, you can read them.
You will see that your statement “It’s about the name of a coffee shop, for God sakes!” is not a true statement. No, it’s not.
It’s about there not even really being a genuine basis for any such thing as “chapter and verse” for you to be quoting to us on The Genuine Chögyam Trungpa.
And you a writer, don’t you at least take a protective interest in Rinpoche’s poetry? Please tell us what you think about the poetry!
John:
Thank you for pointing this out.
I see your point, but Ocean of Dharma is a book of quotes…excerpts. I don’ t think there is the presumption that we are getting “the full story” in these quotes. To me, each is a jewel within a bigger jewel.
That said, I appreciate your posting the full text of these poems, and seeing the bigger context. I don’t think anyone is saying that an excerpt takes the place of the original–we need to have both, and I appreciate your role as a custodian of the original poems.
Where words have been added, yes, there is the option of using footnotes rather than inserting them within the text. In some cases, this might be preferable, in other cases I think it would make for very disjointed reading. Over all, I trust the discretion of the editors Rinpoche trained and entrusted with his words. At the same time, this has been a very healthy discussion which, as Carolyn has said above, is “very helpful”.
“I appreciate your role as a custodian of the original poems.” A.S.
Me too.
Andrew:
When you were on retreat you said you re-read First Thought Best Thought, and were inspired enough to present a couple of poems to us. You could have confidence in their authoritativeness since FTBT appeared in 1982 so of course Rinpoche supervised the presentation of the poems in it.
But now say for instance you are reading from a posthumous book Conquering Fear in which the poem “Fear and Joy Are Truly Yours” (the second example, on Sept 26 above) was slated to appear this year.
The poem (and it is called a poem not an excerpt) is actually an extreme makeover, not just edited, without the benefit of Rinpoche’s approval of the revised version.
So one can’t have the same confidence in poems published posthumously as one has in poems published during Rinpoche’s life, not if editors think they have the freedom to re-package poems according to their own specifications. So there is a topic for discussion.
Sometimes people think that poetry is too esoteric. Please don’t think Ugh poetry is so arcane — it will help if you simply think of a poem as you would think of any other oral teaching transcribed into print.
Then ask yourself how comfortable you would be if the extreme liberty taken with the poetry were instead taken with a transcript of formal teachings?
Would you be comfortable with a similar slice-and-dice approach being applied?
See, poetry isn’t a special case that requires special slicing and dicing; it’s still oral teachings written down in words. It deserves the same disciplined approach which is taken with the formal teachings, it is in the same category.
How do all the other silent poets and writers in the audience feel about this? Please speak now while your feedback may be heard and possibly have a positive effect. Otherwise, “what’s past is prologue” as Shakespeare says.
Do you feel there would be a value to having a peer review process or consulting committee so the editors could gain some fresh air and sunlight?
Perhaps we could ask the editors themselves to speak to the process of editing. Sometimes, when readiing comments here, I wonder if commentators might not also benefit from some fresh air and sunlight.
Don’t get me wrong: the insertion of “Starbuck’s” did give me a little tick. It just seemed odd and somewhat precious. It is perhaps an editorial error.
And poetry must certainly be much more tricky to edit than prose or the task of transcribing spoken word. IMHO I agree that poetry should probably be given the lightest editorial touch possible.
One can listen to the bardo talks and follow along in “Transcending Madness” and get a jist of the work and process of transcribing and editing spoken word.
I believe when the phrase “more heavily edited” appears to describe any particular tome it’s descriptive of a different process than transcribing a talk: it’s a part of the writing process itself and is a portion of the focus required to turn out a book, not a readable version of a talk. The intentions and process are completely different because the end product is a different beast.
I’m sure the editors, Carolyn Judith and others, would be happy to speak to the particulars given the time and opportunity.
Perhaps in place of hand wringing pessimism, distrust, and projecting limited personal experiences that may not particularly apply, as in referring to the process of students editing a college newspaper and other apples-n-oranges comparisons, there could be open inquisitive conversation.
That said, I do agree with you John C., to a degree, re: your critique of the editorial process invloved in the poem you referenced above. Changing “should” to “could” is curious. Not referring to the excerpt as an excerpt is an editorial error, a very clear one. More transparent editing here would very much clear the air. Nevertheless I think it’s more of a muddle and a lack of professional clarity than conspiritorial intent.
I think that Diana Mukpo, and Sakyong Mipham are in league with extra-terrestrials. CTR introduced them, but did not want the relationship to continue to this point. They are building landing strips in the deserts of the US, as well as landing pads in hidden crannies of Tibet(why SMR goes). These landing sites are for the purpose of the infiltration of homosexual aliens, which is clearly successful given the current social climate. (VROT was the first). Now Carolyn Gimian and Judy Lief work hard to cover it up. What I still don’t understand is. . . WHY?
Dear Andrew:
Benny has blind faith and sees concern for the security of Rinpoche’s poetry as a tinfoil hat crackpot conspiracy theory. Benny, that is naïve.
Many of us remember 20 years ago when the full trust and confirmation by Rinpoche of a senior student went terribly wrong. So we know sometimes things can and do go wrong.
And in this case the injury to Rinpoche’s legacy is not insignificant; of course, any injury to his legacy is significant.
At least the agreement here is that especially Rinpoche’s poetry should be left virtually untampered with.
If it’s felt that a particular poem cannot appear in print in its untouched form, then let it not appear in print at all; that’s okay.
I’m not being argumentative. I tried diplomacy but got the cold shoulder. And I couldn’t just look the other way. I hope you understand.
no john. lighten up. I actually agree with you. I am very seriously concerned about the alien question. Can we really trust Tibetans and their historically documented connections with space beings? How can we know that they are benevolent??? we cannot until they reveal themselves. Then it may be too late. This is a matter of fact, and mathematical probability. Dead peoples poetry should not be edited further, Lama, alien sympathizer, or Allen Ginsberg(not an extra terrestrial, but he definitely helped the infiltration)
Untweaked with gratitude to John Castlebury
Changing the poems, I say – NO -
Please do not do it
It can take so long to make a poem
Sometime days or weeks
In truth some gestate for years
And are probably doing so now
It requires so much restraint and patience
Putting mind and heart and voice together
I would never dare hit send to you s
Whom I respect so much
Until I’m sure I’ve got it right
If I were a greater person
Maybe they would all come out perfect
first time through
But even Rinpoche had them read back
So he could listen
Maybe he even tweaked a bit
I tweak a lot
Please do not ever tweak me
Please do not tweak any poet
If a poem is tweaked it may cry
First time through
Not a real poem
All one shot
Untweaked
Madeline
Re Michael’s question: Most of us are totally in the dark as to the extent of editing on ANY of CTR’s work, as that has been downplayed. We haven’t seen raw transcripts or anything of the sort…
As someone mentioned, you can always listen to the audio (and sometimes video) tapes. From my own experience (having listened to and taped 100′s of talks, done some transcribing, some editing, some proof-reading (re-editing), knowing a number of “senior editors” (including my wife)), I would say that Chögyam Trungpa’s words are relatively lightly edited. I’ve had the experience of reading the raw transcript of what became the Cutting Through book, for example, and then reading the book as published. A bit of the raw quality got lost, but you wouldn’t know that reading it now: it’s still an atomic bomb. CTR had a way with words, and you mess with that at your peril.
I use “relatively” here because I know that other teachers are much more heavily re-worked. The Sakyong’s Turning the Mind into an Ally was initially an 800-page book. I wonder also about the numerous Dalai Lama books.
CTR’s sometimes loopy syntax and on-the-spot neologizing could open you up instantly. I once heard him say, “open space cannot be perceived by otherwise at all.” Absolutely brilliant, and one of my all-time favorite quotes. So I was really disappointed to later read a transcript which amended it to something like “otherwise open space cannot be perceived at all”. Feh – tweaked, murky, outlandish, and unscrupulous
Carolyn- thankyou so, so much for tireless devotion! It’s fascinating to read your comments here and particularly to see you reference The Vidyadhara as the Padmasambhava of our age. If you feel so inspired perhaps you could expand on that comment, when you have a spare minute?
Mark- thankyou for clarifying the original confusion and wisdom of this grammatical mishap! Could you maybe provide us with a context for this quote please?
Namaste
Edmund
Carolyn said:
“Rinpoche’s students were so fortunate, we’ve gotten so much…The big issue now is not so much do we have enough; it’s more, how can we share it with the world?”
I appreciate this comment so much. It really got me thinking about the challenge of sharing what I’ve received from Rinpoche. It’s an ongoing challenge. I think it’s so true that it’s up to his senior students to manifest what we’ve learned, in whatever way we can. This resonates with what Mark has written in various places on this site…Basically, it’s up to us. The days of automatic service are over. No one else is going to do it for us!
What! Up to us? Are you kidding? This must be a joke. The us you are referring to, I assume is senior CTR students, who have either walked away, or have equivocated for so long , decades, and have accepted for so long, decades all the changes, including taking down the lineage pictures, that now the confusion about whether even lineage matters is up for grabs. When a group of students now don’t know whether lineage matters? Well, I would say that SI has succeeded in totally programming a group of people, outsiders and insiders, into falling into a well.
Dream on. If the 12th Trungpa Rinpoche is brought over here, it won’t be Shambhala International hosting him, (just like they didn’t host the 17th Karmapa, despite the PR pretending they did (SI is best at pretending), It will be a Kagyu group, there are already rumors to that effect.
No, the senior students you are referring too, phenomenally failed in their first task, i.e. , to protect the teachings of CTR. There are no other chances now. Elvis has left the building to the echoing hollow sounds of ” it’s up to us, it’s up to us”
“No, the senior students you are referring too, phenomenally failed in their first task, i.e. , to protect the teachings of CTR.” Chris
The journalist in me is asking me what you mean concisely about the above quote. Are you saying specifically that the senior students were asked by Trungpa himself to protect the teachings – if they were who were they specifically or was it just a group audience that met with Trungpa. Or are you referring to something in writing that Trungpa wrote and his students interpreted in a certain manner.
Re lineage and this is probably one of the last questions I ask on it for awhile what do you make of Rays statement that he is not self-proclaimed -that Trungpa did indeed want his older students to become lineage holders besides the Regent -how would you see that?
As to Trungpa 12 -there has been a debate on this board about him – how would you recognise that he is a genuine emanation of Trungpa in the light of other comments on this board.
Over to you – really would like to hear your comments on these questions.
Best
Rita Ashworth
Dear Rita:
Lineage, questions about lineage, protecting the teachings of CTR, are all about the same thing.
Senior students , disciples protecting the purity of the teachings. their precious lineage, that they have a responsibility to continue. When you no longer see lineage as important, or you decide to make lineage expedient to the whims of a usurper, you have lost the view, the blessings dont come through and there is nothing but confusion. If you stay in a situation, and bystand lineage being destroyed, and your teachers stream of teachings tweaked and twisted, to the whims of a son , , , , and you stay in because of livelihood, or some mixed up view that you are still protecting the teachings, even though the lineage has been dismissed, and you stand by and let that happen, you are very confused and should not , I believe ,be continuously congratulated…It is how this whole mandala has been turned around .
So the lineage questions and revealed confusion about lineage , and the lack of protecting the teachings of CTR, is really about the same thing. These are not separate issues. Protecting the teachings so that they remain pure in their transmission, i.e. clear and not confusing so that people can wake up not stay confused. is what lineage is. Anything else, is something else.. We have short memories, but it is when the lineage of CTR was dismissed , the pictures of CTR’s lineage taken off the shrine, that the real confusion in this mandala occurred, lest you think lineage is debatable. Even in the most radical Dzogchen teachings,lineage still matters..
Just the way SMR has made lineage expedient, is the thing that should have placed all the senior students of CTR on alert. When even that was o.k. I, for one knew that all was lost in terms of finding the Genuine Trungpa Rinpoche in this mandala of expediency.
Dear Chris
Thank you for your clarification on your last post.
I will print it off and think about it for a while.
I dont think lineage is debateable up to CTR – its after that that I have questions about the way things are progressing. I think I am prepared to live with that confusion for a while -perhaps older students can work with other Kagyu Lamas to manifest CTR’s teachings in the world -there might be a possibility in that area.
Yes Ray is interesting I await further developments with him and perhaps others.
So this is probably one of my last comments on the whole thing and I will think/practice around these questions for the near future.
Best
Rita Ashworth
Rita: Not to pre-empt or answer for Chris, who can answer for herself, but my own view *used to be* that senior students’ “first task [was] to protect the teachings of CTR.” That is, I was one of the senior students who heard that command from CTR. Where did I hear it? Well, it may have been when I worked for and then managed Vajradhatu Recordings in Boulder, 1975-78.
Vdh. Recordings was the first place where VCTR’s teachings were preserved and protected – in the original recordings from which all the transcripts and books of his seminars, talks and meetings were preserved. At Vdh. Recordings we believed we had a sacred duty to preserve, protect and disseminate his teachings for the benefit of future generations. I suppose that is where my own assumption came from, that all his “senior students” *should* understand that their samaya included the duty to protect and preserve and propagate VCTR’s teachings. But that assumption was reinforced in so many ways by the training programs he designed for us to become meditation instructors, teachers and directors of Shambhala Training. I never questioned my assumption that, as his students – and especially as MI’s, teachers, and directors of Shambhala Training – it was our duty to protect and propagate his teachings. Who else was going to do it? Why else would he have put so much blood, sweat and tears into training us???
Well, that was my assumption until my vajra brothers and sisters, people who had taken samaya with VCTR, began demonstrating that they did not believe it was their duty to protect and preserve VCTR’s legacy. I began to realize that many of my old sangha friends did not see things the same way I did when the basic meditation instruction was changed, and seasoned MI’s were told by Dale Asrael, the representative of Sakyong Mipham, that we now had to teach meditation according to SMR’s instruction. Well, that jettisoned my own 20-yr. ‘career’ as an MI. I literally felt I’d be damned if I went along with changing VCTR’s meditation instruction, which I still believe in whole-heartedly.
I was aghast that so many students of the Vidyadhara went along with the changes that SMR instituted. Each one made my blood boil: the name change from Vdh. to SI, and of dharmadhatus to Shambhala Centers, the removal of Vajradhara and lineage photos from shrines, the transformation of RMDC from a genuine practice retreat center soaked in lineage blessings and drala, to the new-age corporate resort called SMC, the merging of Shambhala Training with a Buddhist curriculum, etc., etc., etc. But many of my old friends rationalized these changes, which also made my blood boil. I wasn’t silent, I had arguments with my peers, but I seemed to have few allies. Even some former Vdh. directors went along with the changes. Nobody who had any influence within SI had any interest whatsoever in my objections, and some people insulted me and warned me that I was breaking samaya!
This story is not over! When will “senior students” who now have oaths of loyalty to SMR wake up and confess?
Here we go again… You people have bee so deluded by alien influences that you don’t know which way is up. You are like fish in a tank: ooh a castle, turn, ooh a castle, turn, ooh a castle. You wonder why no one responds to this crap. Ooh a Castle. Don’t worry, there are those of us commited to fighting the alien scourge. Hopefully we will be victorious in time to save you.
My last two posts seem to have stirred up a couple of hornet’s nests.
First, re: the quote from the Vidyadhara about his reincarnation. I posted that as a point of information, certainly not as a conclusion.
Second, re: “it’s up to us”…We can complain, we can equivocate, we can storm off, we can position ourself on the “right side” of the argument, whatever. In the end, *regardless,* are we doing everything we can to preserve and propagate these wonderful teachings we have been entrusted with–never mind the obstacles–or are we using one of the “good excuses” that are out there (and there are many) to shy away from the challenge?
Even if there is little to no support from within SI, are we still doing whatever we can? There’s a real charnel ground quality to this. Have we have been eaten up by the charnel groundness, or is it “otherwise”?
Here is the current Ocean of Dharma Quote of the Week, same as the “ODQW” for November 6, 2008 [below], which is here again followed by the unexpurgated text of Rinpoche’s original poem, as commented upon earlier in this thread in September, 2009:
Date: Fri, 15 Oct 2010 19:21:56 -0300
> From: cgimian@suchns.com
> To: dharmaocean@lists.shambhala.com
> Subject: [OceanofDharma] Quotes of the Week: Fearlessness and Joy Are Truly Yours
>
> Ocean of Dharma Quotes of the Week
October 15, 2010
>
> FEARLESSNESS AND JOY ARE TRULY YOURS
>
> When a warrior king presents a gift,
> It could be a naked flame, which consumes the jungle of ego,
> Or an ice cold mountain range, which cools the heat of aggression.
> On the other hand, it could be a parachute.
> One wonders whether it will open or not.
> There is a further choice—Thunderbolt:
> Whether you are capable of holding it with your bare hand is up to you.
> So, my heartfelt child, take these gifts and use them
> In the way that past warriors have done.
>
> From SMILE AT FEAR: Awakening the True Heart of Bravery.
*****
On September 26th, 2009 6:03 am John Castlebury wrote:
Ocean of Dharma “Quotes” of the Week
November 6, 2008
FEARLESSNESS AND JOY ARE TRULY YOURS
When a warrior king presents a gift,
It *{could} be *{a} naked flame, which consumes the jungle of ego,
Or an ice cold mountain range, which cools the heat of aggression.
On the other hand, it could be a parachute.
*{One wonders whether it will open or not.}
There is a further choice –Thunderbolt:
Whether you are capable of holding it with *{your} bare hand is up to you.
So, my heartfelt *{child}, take *{these gifts} and use them
In the way that past warriors have done.
Unpublished poem, from the manuscript of CONQUERING FEAR: THE HEART OF SHAMBHALA, forthcoming in 2009.
***
*{Innovations of the editor}
This is an excerpt, not a whole poem; it’s the first 11 lines of a poem with its dedication and final 9 lines missing. Why? To use a poem with the word “fearlessness” in its title to coordinate with the forthcoming book Conquering Fear?
But this sort of tinkering, expunging half the poem and inventing new language actually misrepresents the true occasion of the poem, it misappropriates the poem, and it can no longer be called Rinpoche’s poem at all; it is someone’s *version* of Rinpoche’s poem.
Compare and contrast…
From Rinpoche’s unpublished poetry, raw and unabridged, with its dedication and its final 9 lines restored:
***
Fearlessness and Joy Are Truly Yours:
For the Vajra Regent Ösel Tendzin
When a warrior king presents a gift,
It should be naked flame
Which consumes the jungle of ego,
Or ice cold mountain range
Which cools the heat of aggression.
On the other hand, it could be a parachute,
Which questionably will open or not.
There is a further choice – thunderbolt:
Whether you are capable of holding it with a bare hand is up to you.
So, my heartfelt son, take them and use them
In the way that the past warriors have done.
You have the strength and capability as well as careful training.
Please cherish this standard of mine, the Tiger Lion Garuda Dragon dignity flag.
So you will accomplish maitri, karuna, joy and greater vision.
With the work that you have performed and lots of sacrifice for the sake of greater sangha,
And bringing about Great Eastern Sun for the enlightened society,
You deserve to live a thousand years –
Whether you like it or not.
You have learned a lot, performed magnificently.
I the humble Vajracarya, along with my wife, would like to wish cheerful birthday to you, my lord.
[Kalapa Court, 21 August 1981]
[I was once told that because Rinpoche is no longer here to authorise changes, it is vital to edit as verbatim as possible, excepting pidgin English. That would be a sound theory, if only it were the practice.
The translators have a committee and arrive at some degree of consensus. The editors could benefit from having a similar style of committee to offer honest advice such as Mr. McLeod’s.
Otherwise the next-generation of editor/interns may be taught that the literary legacy is plastic to be molded at their discretion – when the only real discretion editors have is to faithful accuracy.
Why change a word if a footnote will do?]
Normally I love Carolyn Gimian’s work, and all the books she has published.
But I agree, rewriting CTR’s poems seems a bit odd. It’s like taking Shakespeare’s iambic pentameter, and just swapping in some words with a different meter and meaning, but publishing it as if it were the original.
When a warrior king presents a gift,
It should be naked flame
Which consumes the jungle of ego
With my own teacher, he often said that we were determined to change his message, so that we could turn him into a marketable product, instead of a fire. He said we were afraid to present him as he is to people, because we’re afraid people won’t be interested. We’re too concerned with being liked, and bargaining with people.
On the other hand, there is a need for editors to review things, and to consider how to present things to an audience.
It’s all a very artful matter, isn’t it?
It could be a naked flame
this revision seems not so good.