A Way Forward

December 4, 2009 by Charles Marrow Print This Post

Proposal by Charles Marrow

A few years ago a vajra sister recounted an exchange she had with Chögyam Trungpa Rinpoche at Seminary in 1985, at a teacher/meditation instructor meeting. Rinpoche had just recently finished a year of retreat in Nova Scotia and was not entirely well physically. Also, from time to time, he would go into a kind of other-worldly realm in his manner of communicating and manifesting. This lady, well ahead of her time, had the thought that Rinpoche might not be with us too much longer, and she was brave enough to address her sensibilities directly. She had a simple line of questions with the Vidyadhara that went to the effect of: “Sir, when you leave us, what advice do you have regarding who will lead us?” Rinpoche responded in a matter-of-fact way: “I am the guru.” This lady went on to probe a little further, asking: “Won’t [so and so] be able to help us?” Rinpoche replied somewhat more forcefully: “I am the guru!” And she went further: ‘Won’t the Vajra Regent continue your teachings?” And the Vidyadhara became adamant at that point, with an even more forceful response, saying, “I am the guru!” [1]

As we know, fundamental issues of practice and lineage have been extensively considered in this web-based forum and in other situations, such as various Shambhala Congresses. The change in lineage orientation, practice, and study that has been taken by Shambhala International has been recognized by many sangha members as disruptive and disheartening. Many of us feel like it is important to maintain a much closer connection with Trungpa Rinpoche’s teachings and his approach to dharma practice, and that this would bring a greater sense of meaning and joy into our lives. This has been discussed extensively numerous times.

I think it is necessary for those of us who have these deeply felt concerns to shift our approach and determine how we may go further, and what kind of approach is spiritually satisfying and realistic. The years have moved along, and, while maintaining a keen sense of lineage tradition, we also must acknowledge the fact of impermanence and that times have changed. It is easy to point out where there are shortfalls, but at some point we need to clarify what we want to do in an affirmative way. We need to determine what kind of effort we can apply to the situation and make a commitment to go forward.

That being the case, I would like to present for the sangha’s consideration what, in effect, becomes a statement of purpose for those of us who would like to return to the spiritual principles we were brought up with by the Vidyadhara. The points made below might seem so obvious as to be hardly worth stating. But if we are to proceed in a practical manner and reignite our sense of sanghaship and lineage connection, then it is probably useful to explore our feelings by stating what may be obvious.

Going a step further, some sympathetic readers may look at this and say, ”Well, that’s great, but it is pie in the sky. How are we going to implement such a thing?” In regards to this response I would like to ask that we apply patience and take things step by step.

We could consider our concerns in two stages. The first stage is akin to prajna, i.e., let us define what it is we feel as valuable to put our energy into. Then, once that is somewhat clarified, we can move to an upaya orientation, and work on the how and the practicalities of accomplishing such things.

Having said this, I will break my own rules slightly and suggest that, first of all, there are avenues of influence that exist within Shambhala International that have not been fully developed. I think the Vidyadhara defined “vajra politics” as a group’s collective expression of buddha nature. If there is some straightforward person-to-person and group-to-group collaboration that is willing to address difficult issues, I feel our sangha has the sanity to navigate through this process. On a very nitty-gritty level, we have lots of real estate in terms of practice center space that, in many cases, is currently underutilized. In spite of the economic downturn, it is highly likely that there are levels of untapped participation from sangha members who feel there has not been an adequate response to their spiritual concerns over many years and have reduced the amount of money they contribute as a result of those feelings. On an important philosophical level, we have the wealth of the Ri-me, i.e. non-sectarian, tradition of Jamgön Kongtrül the Great, and with a genuine approach of open-mindedness, I am confident a new style of leadership can arise within our organization, where the various approaches to practice and study can be accommodated in an intelligent, respectful, and balanced manner.

In terms of natural hierarchy, the teachings and practice approach of Trungpa Rinpoche must be given the proper attention and space that they deserve within the organization. It is not reasonable to have Shambhala International “cut, paste, and morph” what Trungpa Rinpoche gave us, and expect that this kind of treatment of the dharma will be accepted across the spectrum of the sangha.

To return to practical considerations, it seems important to be aware that we must take individual responsibility in regard to considering what we are doing. We are probably approaching the end of what can be substantially accomplished by a high degree of reliance on the internet. The recent Radio Free Shambhala thread of “Heart in Palm” has over 400 reader comments attached to it. This has been a useful process, but we have to move on. If there is interest in going forward, there will be the need to rouse the energy and commitment to do the multitude of obvious things. Maybe some of us will have to drive a couple of hours to attend a nyinthün, a deleg meeting, or a dharma discussion. There will have to be mountains of patience put into the discussions and interactions with others in the sangha in order to come up with acceptable solutions that respect a wide range of feelings.

Having said all of this, let us return to the prajna side of things and see if we have a coherent vision that is inspiring and worthwhile for our efforts. Please read and consider the following. Comments are appreciated, but pretty soon there will need to be phone calls and face-to-face meetings. In my mind, more full-scale nyinthün practice is exceedingly important under these circumstances. Lastly, I would like to remind everyone: “Be careful what you ask for because you might get it!”

In draft form, the following policy directions are presented for consideration by the sangha. They emphasize the importance of Chögyam Trungpa Rinpoche’s Kagyü and Nyingma lineages, dharma teachings, and path of practice. Further, the Shambhala Training Levels as taught for the past twenty-year period are regarded as essential to be continued. These general statements are presented in more detail as follows.

The Vajradhatu Shambhala sangha should focus its energies in order:

To support a sangha that studies and practices the buddhadharma as presented by the Vidyadhara, Chögyam Trungpa Rinpoche as he taught in the context of the Kagyü and Nyingma traditions of Tibetan Buddhism. This is generally known as the Vajradhatu tradition.
To support a sangha that studies and practices the Shambhala teachings of Chögyam Trungpa Rinpoche. The Shambhala Training and graduate levels that have been established for many years should be maintained, including the Warrior’s Assembly and Kalapa Assembly.
To encourage the practice of sitting meditation for all levels of membership. This practice opens up the depth of nonconceptual insight. Nyinthüns, daily sitting practice, and dathüns are essential. Dharma teachers and administrators should be at the forefront, setting an example for shamatha-vipashyana practice.
To encourage spiritually beneficial relationships with eminent Kagyü and Nyingma Tibetan Buddhist masters. In particular, close relationships with Karmapa Urgyen Thinley Dorje, the Ven. Khenchen Thrangu Rinpoche, Dzongsar Khyentse Rinpoche, and others should be furthered.
To establish and confirm specific shrine-room spaces, where the shrine imagery and liturgies are consistent with Vajradhatu practice traditions and principles. To encourage teaching and meditation sessions whereby the sangha may practice according to Trungpa Rinpoche’s teachings in these shrine rooms. In particular, effort should be applied to increase the activity of the full weekend nyinthün, and the Vajrayogini and Chakrasamvara feast practices.
To promote the social and cultural traditions of Shambhala and Vajradhatu that were created during the lifetime of Chögyam Trungpa.
To remember to further the manifestation of Nova Scotia as the geographical center of Shambhala society.
To make every reasonable effort to reintegrate sangha members who have drifted away over the years. In particular, to utilize the deleg system for this important purpose.
To request Sakyong Mipham Rinpoche and the Sakyong Wangmo to officiate at Shambhala events, and thus present the dignity, basic goodness, and spiritual inheritance of our Shambhala and Buddhist world. Furthermore, to request that they increase their presence at the Halifax Kalapa Court and convene regular Kalapa Assemblies.
To respect that some sangha members will want to follow the practice path set out by Sakyong Mipham Rinpoche, and to see that shrine-room space and administrative support is appropriately allocated for this purpose.

If we are to pursue this general direction, we will need to proceed with energy, intelligence, and a sympathetic attitude towards a wide range of sentiments. The Vidhyadhara taught that virtuous and enlightened activities are always difficult and require manual effort, like laying brick upon brick to create a useful building. He also taught that negative activities are much easier, and usually come with a big sweep because they go along with habitual tendencies. With that in mind, I would suggest that it is helpful to consider simple, practical questions from the outset, such as:

Would we take advantage of the direction proposed, and attend feasts and nyinthüns organized along these lines?

Would we be inspired to teach and staff the traditional Shambhala levels? Does this direction represent an approach we could recommend to others?

Can we find the leadership and dharma teachers from among our ranks who we can support and respect?

An array of realistic and kitchen-sink-level considerations such as these need to be kept in the picture from the very beginning. I trust that this is helpful in furthering the sangha’s noble aspirations.

Charles Marrow
PO Box 595, 525 Main St.
Mahone Bay, Nova Scotia
B0J 2E0, Ph. (902) 531-2491

Edited from the original version of the article, following corrections sent in by people present.

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Comments

115 Responses to “A Way Forward”

John Tischer on December 5th, 2009 2:13 am

Yes, let’s look at what we really want rather than what we can”t remember we’re loosing. Manifesto! Edicts! Sure….!! …why not? This is the opposite of a monologue…which has been the problem….and which I think the suggestion here is to go beyond.
rita ashworth on December 5th, 2009 8:45 am

Dear Charles

Thanks so much for this article and the story from the vajra sister -very illuminating at this time.

I think I am more into this approach not just because of the Buddhist teachings being kept in a kind of pristine state but also more because of the Shambhalian teachings.

At this time of the evolution of these teachings in the west I dont think we should be defining them so acutely. I think they need time to bed down in the west – for example the king concept is universal in every culture and I think we need those cultures themselves to explore the whole thing more directly. I think people should ask deeper questions as to why CTR presented the shambhala teachings as he did.

Me I think he saw the karma of the west was ripe for these teachings and that other ideas/cultures would ripen from them as time passes – so I think we have to have an early days approach like Mark says with Shambhala – I know there are risks to that aswell but I think we do have the leisure of time to do that.

As to the Sakyong I am not averse to seeing him as a King in relation to perhaps the general conduct of people and for a gateway to access the Vidyadharas tantric and shambhalian teachings -we do need to arrange some thing about that as to who has access to the teachings.

So yes the college system re Oxford and the Catholic church I think would work here aswell.

Well best for now – hope its not too cold in NS!

Rita Ashworth
stockport Uk
John on December 5th, 2009 1:16 pm

Why oh why can’t anyone embrace the reincarnation of CTR as “THE GURU”?

Is everyone living in the past and refusing to embrace the new?

The “GURU” is back but no one is running to embrace him.

WHY???
Edward on December 5th, 2009 2:29 pm

This is the only real solution, I think.

My old teacher used to say that we were free to discuss things, but eventually we had to come to some conclusions and then act on those conclusions. Otherwise the discussion was liable to be frivolous, a diversion.

He also said that if we didn’t like our government, the best solution was neither to complain about it and try to overthrow it, nor to childishly go along with it in hopes that it would somehow provide for our needs. Rather, we ourselves had to be willing to do what was necessary, through cooperation with like-minded individuals to create the things that were important to us, whether the government was good, bad, or middling. If we truly did that, the government would either conform to the virtues of the people, or would simply become superfluous and cease to exist in its current form.

Mr. Morrow, I agree with you when you talk about elightened activities being “always difficult and require manual effort” Yes.

To answer one of your questions, yes, I think I would attend Sunday group sittings organized along these lines. But as a graduate of Level IV, I will not be teaching Shambhala levels any time soon.

By the way, whatever happened to the weekthun you tried to organize last spring on this website? I thought that was a good idea but I was unable to attend.

Also, since this is a tangible, positive, ongoing proposal, it would be nice if your article was somehow less… transitory… than some of the other articles on this website, which tend to appear, begin discussions (which almost immediately depart to other tangents), and then be forgotten.
Bill Karelis on December 5th, 2009 2:41 pm

If find this proposal accurate to the times, comprehensive, openhearted, reasonable and capable of being adopted.
jason meibus on December 5th, 2009 11:58 pm

this is ridiculous, and has the bill Karelis seal of approval.
mark a. smith on December 6th, 2009 8:52 pm

Good morning Charles,

Thank you for your heart-felt and measured proposal above.

If I thought what you describe above was possible within Shambhala International as now constituted, I would join in the specific initiative you outline above immediately (which I probably will do anyway though without much hope for fruition).

However, I think we need to acknowledge that Shambhala Buddhism is now the ’state church’ of KOS, the church of the current Sakyong King and that presently there does not appear to be any openness to having Vajradhatu (the ‘Church of the Vidyadhara’) within the confines of Shambhala International independent of, and parallel to, the Shambhala Buddhist Church.

I would be pleased to participate in this initiative in Colorado—it will be interesting and would most likely include many who do not agree with all my views (or accept on eof my root teachers, Vajra Regent Osel Tendzin).

To succeed as your outline, the initiative would require the view and activities that you set forth above AND a willingness on the part of Sakyong Mipham Rinpoche to re-image KOS in a manner which includes a re-created Shambhala Training leading to a complete path through Kalapa Assembly (and now Rigden Abhisheka/Scorpion Seal Retreat that was open to those (old and new) students of the Vidyadhara (and his teachings/students) who do not elect to follow the Shambhala Buddhist path.

KOS would have to open to, and provide an umbrella for, those who follow (and teach) the Vidyadhara’a teachings (and/or hold his lineage) in parallel to the Shambhala Buddhist lineage. And hopefully,sooner rather than later , to students of other Buddhist teachers/lineages and non-Buddhist ‘Wisdon Traditions’) so long the individual practitioners (and later organizations) pledge/vow ‘allegiance/loyalty’ is to the Mukpo/Sakyong Lineage and KOS.

Without some substantial (re-)adoption of this view/step by Shamhala International/KOS, I fear that the effort you outline will come to naught within SI/KOS and will need to be pursued from outside SI until such time as the resulting entities grow/stabilize and elect to petition the (then current) Sakyong for inclusion in something like the manner I set forth above.

In the Aspiration that the KOS Re-Expand its Vision to Foster the Full Scope of the Vidyadhara’s Teachings and Manifestations For the Benefit of All Beings.

Mark A. Smith
mas1@ctelco.net
303-517-5302 (cel)
719-256-5329 (hm)
rita ashworth on December 7th, 2009 9:49 am

Re the above also there are so many qualified Trungpa teachers outside of SI. Was listening to Khandro interview on the web and I think all of her main students were formerly mainly in SI, for example Peter Lieberson, Rita Gross and Helen Berliner -so people are going elsewhere for teachings.

Think SI has to recognise the above fact and some way start to have relationships with these people and others and start the fostering of perhaps ‘new’ traditions based on CTR’s teachings in the world generally.

A form this could take would be like an Ecumenical Council in the UK which started in the nineteenth century when many Protestant traditions got together to foster awareness of Christianity around the globe -so there are historical precedents for this happening.

Perhaps Edwards idea of a petition round the world could be re-formed and we could have say a list where people could sign up to state they were interested in Charles approach and this could be put on rfs – and then maybe we could get together physically or maybe over the web in a kind of forum of interest that would lead to a physical meeting.

Just some random thoughts.

Best

Rita Ashworth
Jake on December 8th, 2009 6:31 am

Sounds good to me. A couple of thoughts:
- I would love to meet with folks in person, but serious travel isn’t a good option. Money is tight right now. Probably true for a lot of people. Regional meetings?

- Yes, Trungpa Rinpoche is the guru. What about the guru who’s in a human body? This might be the biggest stumbling block. Trungpa said that this was important, but some of us don’t feel a connection to the Sakyong. Would people find gurus elsewhere, and then study in this group?

Still, a very exciting step in the right direction!
Charles Marrow on December 8th, 2009 3:19 pm

I think all the comments noted are very helpful as a way to explore the topic of going forward with a genuine path of practice and study of dharma, especially in regards to following the Shambhala and Buddhist teachings of Chogyam Trungpa Rinpoche. In the next week or so, I hope to add another comment or two that addresses the various excellent remarks that have been made thus far. This particular comment probably connects most to Edward’s and Jake’s comments.

I would like to start with a cautionary remark. It is recommended that we respect our genuine feelings about being in any dharma scene and if something feels funny, that there is some distortion or ego tripping going on, that we respect those feelings and phase ourselves out of such a scene if those feelings go on too long, e.g. for months or even years. No sangha is perfect, but if any dharma scene cannot get a focus and approach that feels genuine and wholesome and if this feeling goes on too long, we should, individually phase ourselves out of such a scene. This can potentially happen in any community but becomes a greater concern if one is practicing the Vajrayana. Trungpa Rinpoche explains this in detail often, e.g. in the book, “Myth of Freedom.”

On an individual basis, if I were stranded on a dessert island without any community, teacher or external spiritual guidance I think there are a few reliable reference points in the Shambhala and Buddhist traditions. The first is simply to continue our own straightforward, no frills sitting practice. Mindfulness of posture, breath and the bare recognition of the arising of thoughts is always important. In regards to this hinayana level the Sattipathana Sutta is a brief and clear presentation of sitting practice that comes with the authority and command of Shakyamuni Buddha. In English it is known as the, “Four Foundations of Mindfulness.” For Mahayana there is Gampopa’s “Jewel Ornament of Liberation”. In this text Gampopa proceeds with a concise and yet complete presentation of the entire Mahayana path. Both of these texts exist in excellent English translations, they are traditional and for some people a dry read but they are completely reliable and accessible if the practitioner applies some degree of discipline. And…before I forget, let us definitely add, “Shambhala, Sacred Path of the Warrior” to our packing list for being on a desert island.

At the level of something more human and energized this thread is exploring what kind of formats are helpful in creating independent dharma practice situations where a group of people can be supportive to each other’s practice in a situation where an existing group is not relevant or accessible for any number of reasons. Personally, most of my dharma history has been related to the big Trungpa Rinpoche communities in Boulder and Halifax. (continued)
Charles Marrow on December 8th, 2009 3:36 pm

(continuing)…..I should mention that I am currently re-exploring positive options that may be of interest to me at the Halifax Shambhala Center . Having said that, my recent involvement has been at the Mahone Bay Shambhala Center which is usually pretty vibrant, but not very big. However recently I had to phase myself out of that because I could not make any sense out of “Shambhala Buddhism” as a genuine lineage. So there are many subtle issues here.

If we get to a practical approach to experiment with the viability of independent dharma groups that might be organized in a home, a community room at a public library, a dance studio etc., my best guess would be to do the following: First of all someone has to have some degree of experience in sitting practice. Let us provisionally anoint Edward for our test run and say he has done Shambhala Training Level four, he can sit up straight on the meditation cushion and he can ring the gong to start and end a 40 minute sitting period. This stalwart pioneer could also light a shrine with incense, 2 candles and a Buddha image to create a little atmosphere in the room. After the sitting is done, he could read a passage from Trungpa Rinpoche that would take anywhere from 5 to 15 minutes, a discussion could follow which would not last much longer than 30 minutes and then there could be a time for tea and socializing. If I were to make a suggestion, that could be a possible format for an independent dharma group that was just getting started. It is nearly certain that before too long, this imagined small group would want a connection with an experienced practitioner. When this happens, I would suggest looking for someone who a) has the years/mileage as a meditator b) does not drop little suggestions implying that anyone has to make a big deal about them and c) communicates a bit of flatness or ‘cool boredom” in their approach and…..ideally…..find a senior practitioner that partners with another senior person as collaborators to provide a mentorship role for this proposed dharma group. The co-leadership process is likely to reduce the temptation of the dharma teacher to get inadvertently seduced into making a big deal about themselves in their own minds. So all that I have said here is my best guess about how to navigate in waters that are somewhat uncharted as we all work towards planting the authentic Buddha-dharma in the West. In closing, I would hope that Bill Karelis would add some remarks here from his personal experience with independent dharma groups.
John on December 8th, 2009 5:31 pm

Does no one care to learn from CTR the 12th?

You don’t seem to care at all that CTR is back?

What does that say about all of you who call themselves his students and CTR’s teaching on reincarnation?

Sad ,very very sad!!!!
Jake on December 8th, 2009 7:36 pm

I emailed Konchok foundation re: the 12th Trungpa. The answer was prompt, kind and somewhat cautious. This is definitely an option for me. I am waiting for further information. It was frustrating to not be met with an immediate response of “Yes, you’re in,” but so it goes. I will decide how to move forward with this as I get further information.

So, at least one guy is thinking of the current Trungpa tulku! I’m sure others are as well.

As re: the response, I don’t feel like my questions were answered, Charles. Thank you, by the way, for responding, but I wasn’t totally satisfied with the answers. What about the need for a guru? How could people create these groups without a central teacher when based on Trungpa’s teachings? He so clearly emphasized the importance of the living guru. It seems inconsistent.

The idea of small study/meditation groups sounds sane and is really exciting to me. The idea of no-frills, decent teachers sounds excellent. But why leave this big issue unaddressed? Am I missing something re:Trungpa’s position on the guru? Why create groups with a missing part and hope for the best?
Becky Hazell on December 9th, 2009 12:11 am

Dear folks,

I am the prescient young lady to whom Charles referred at the beginning ot the article. Alas, he has many important facts wrong, and I feel compelled to correct them. I attended a combination teachers’/MI’s meeting with the Vidyadhara at the 1985 Seminary, at which the Regent, the then Sawang, and Loppon Lodro Dorje were present. Rinpoche had been on retreat the year before and came to seminary looking beyond ill. Many of the attendees had never met him, and their connection was with the Regent, and he freaked them out with his appearance and general Crazy Wisdom approach. As you may know, it was also at this seminary that Rinpoche had the Regent tested for AIDS during a physical, and he was found to be HIV positive. That’s the context.
Becky Hazell on December 9th, 2009 12:26 am

I am the lady to whom Charles referred in the article. Alas, I must correct his facts. It was a teacher/MI meeting with CTR at the 1985 Seminary, and the Regent, the then Sawang, and the Loppon were present. CTR had been on retreat the year before and was clearly ill. Many attendees had never met him, were more connected to the Regent, and were freaked out. On their behalf and not knowing about the Regent’s health, I asked CTR three different questions, starting with should these people regard the Regent as their guru. Hence the first “I am the guru.” The second time was something similar from a different direction, but I forget now what it was (and only one other person besides me even vaguely recalls this conversation.) The third time I asked what we should do after he died, and he said “I AM THE GURU!” and looked irritated. At no time did any question arise about the then Sawang. Becky Hazell
Mark Hazell on December 9th, 2009 1:25 am

I have a few points that I would like to make. The first has to do with Becky’s two posts above — having heard of her conversation with the Vidyadhara shortly after it occurred (I was at home with our two children while she was at SMC teaching at the Seminary, but we spoke on the phone frequently), I was much struck by Charles’ account of the conversation and mentioned to it Becky because I had a hard time imagining that two almost identical conversations with the Vidyadhara could have occurred.

The next thing I would like to say is that in essence I agree with Charles — if we value what we have been taught, then it is up to us to mix our minds with the dharma and then share what we have learned and what we have realized with the sangha. We can organize feasts if they aren’t happening, or nyinthuns or study groups or whatever we feel is not happening. In August Becky and I led a six week study group on the Sadhana of Mahamudra in Victoria. About a dozen people turned out, an interesting mix of old and new students, and we had a great time going through the Sadhana. We read the Sadhana Sourcebook and Crazy Wisdom and the Translation Committee’s literal translation of the Sadhana, and also Rinpoche’s “The Way of Maha Ati”, and we got the people in the study group to do presentations on all kinds of topics that they weren’t sure they were up to, and the whole thing was fantastic.

Similarly, another of sangha members in Victoria has organized weekly nyinthuns, albeit have day nyinthuns, but none the less they happen regularly and they are very well attended.

New students are so eager to learn from us — we can’t afford to be shy or resentful or whatever it is that prevents us from sharing what we were given. At the same time, none of what I say here should be understood to say that I think people should not participate in The Way of Shambhala curriculum — I think it’s a fantastic program. It draws on a wealth of the Vidyadhara’s teachings, and of course on the Sakyong’s books as well. All of the people who have participated in it out here in Victoria have found it to be very rich — as one of the teachers of the Contentment in Everyday Life class, it’s given me the opportunity to really dig into the Vidyadhara’s hinayana teachings and to rediscover their power.

I do feel a need to comment on one other thing. Charles seemed to imply that Shambhala Training has been modified or is not happening and this isn’t so — Shambhala Training Levels I – V and the Sacred Path (graduate levels) are still being presented — you can find a long list of the levels being offered all around the world on the Shambhala.org website — the only thing that has fallen away is Kalapa Assemby, and once again I will say that the only way it will happen in the future is if we create it. The 16th Karmapa and Dilgo Khyentse Rinpoche didn’t come until they were supplicated to come and then the Vidyadhara essentially created out of whole cloth a world that was magnetizing to them. We need to do the same.

All the best,

Mark
Edward on December 9th, 2009 2:16 am

Mark Hazell writes
Charles seemed to imply that Shambhala Training has been modified… and this isn’t so

Perhaps this is a matter of opinion, or differs from area to area. At my Level III 2-3 years ago, the director expressed huge relief that he could fill the weekend up with Buddhist lingo, thanks to a recent communication from SMR, he said. But maybe we should save this discussion for a different thread. I’m becoming more and more convinced that this debate will never end.

Jake writes:
What about the need for a guru? How could people create these groups without a central teacher when based on Trungpa’s teachings?

Jake, can you be more specific? How would a “central teacher” affect this?

Mr. Marrow did mention cultivating relationships with a number of living teachers.

In what sense is CTR dead? Even when he was alive– even if you were his wife, or live-in student– there was probably a limited number of hours in the day that you actually spent with him. The rest of the time you spent going about other business. I’m sure CTR’s students could create that same atmosphere.

What are you looking to get from a living guru Jake? Personal feedback? Transmission? Instruction that fits your modern lifetsyle? A living example? Someone you can interact with regularly? A centralized organizational structure? Someone who is foreign, who has foreign mannerisms and speaks English as a second language?

I’m just curious.

If CTR was a good teacher, perhaps those who spent decades living with him and practicing his teachings could be tolerable teachers? I think that’s kind of the whole point. Perhaps that’s why folks like Reggie Ray and Bill Karelis have attracted people to their classes.

Charles Marrow writes:
If we get to a practical approach…

I think your approach is good. I’m not in a place where I can jump in. But I think your plan is good.

Perhaps if people don’t like your approach, they could help by offering specific suggestions or ways to improve it?
Edward on December 9th, 2009 2:29 am

Jake writes:
What about the need for a guru?

I’d like to share a personal story. I was shocked at 3 out of 4 Levels that I took, in that I felt the same kind of atmosphere that I used to feel in my guru’s personal company.

At three of the Levels, at the end of the weekend people had tears in their eyes, they were really moved– one man said it was the most transformative weekend of his life. That weekend was transformative for a number of people, they later told me.

I was shocked that anyone could create a training system like this. I was amazed at how well designed these weekends are, down to the smallest detail. Perhaps other people are so used to them that they don’t notice the genius, or aren’t as shocked by it as I was.

It was as thought Trungpa Rinpoche took his own realization and somehow compressed a portion of it into this form, this training format, kind of like a living, breathing, multi-organismed art form that happens in time and space.

I remember thinking that first weekend that a lot of things that I used to think were necessary, like being in the room with a living teacher, did not seem to be necessary to benefit from these Shambhala Training weekends that CTR had created, through his incredible genius.
Mark Hazell on December 9th, 2009 11:58 am

To Edward — I’ve been involved with Shambhala Training since it began, and there have always been some directors who could not resist “buddhist lingo”, so in that sense you’re correct, it does vary from centre to centre and from level to level.
Jake on December 9th, 2009 12:17 pm

I guess personal feedback and transmission.

Maybe people could have root gurus elsewhere and still train with these groups. That seems off to me, but maybe that’s fine.

Trungpa was pretty clear about needing a living teacher. In a few of his books in the Q and A sections he addresses this. One in Cutting Through, I think someone asks about using the teachings, as in printed teachings as teacher, and I remember his response being simple and direct- it doesn’t work that way. Something like that.
rita ashworth on December 9th, 2009 1:21 pm

Re Beckys comment on Trungpa’s statement of ‘ I am the Guru’-thanks for putting that into a historical context.

That is an interesting provisio that you made but it got me thinking of religion persay -if you take Christianity for example who of the students were ‘closer’ to Jesus – Peter who knew him personally or Paul who never met him? Its debateable……I think we are going to have these Christianity like debates re Trungpa in the coming years – so will anyone have the lowdown on Trungpa? Thats why for one reason I think there are new groups forming – it seems to me this is the way the west works with religion and has done for 2,000 years …….so things can be shifty and workable at the same time to me.

Of course some will point to lineage…….an authorised lineage …….but is that the way in the west ……can that work here -what works here -maybe its more of a faith alone thing as Luther said……then we are into some strange era again re religions from the East melding into our sphere of existence.

Just raising questions -dont have the answers to what will happen …as I dont think many have ……if they really look at things and peoples questionings of the scene in SI and elsewhere in the mandala.

Best

Rita Ashworth,UK
Charles Marrow on December 9th, 2009 8:47 pm

Greetings Everyone –

We are trying to do a lot on this thread and I was hoping to keep up with people’s good input as we go along. Let me address in this comment the issue of Shambhala Training. Currently, in Halifax, the office of practice and study for Shambhala International has been working with the local Halifax Center to pilot and promote the “Way of Shambhala” curriculum as part of the Shambhala Buddhist approach. In this format the Shambhala Levels are being maintained in their traditional form. However, they are being encompassed in the “Way of Shambhala” curriculum and students are being encouraged to do the Shambhala Buddhist courses in conjunction with Shambhala Training (maybe this is the greatest thing!?!?). But to me the whole Shambhala Training approach loses its independent secular quality by the way its being, for lack of a better expression, “packaged”. My opinion is the change in context for Shambhala Training is significant when it is encompassed in this “Way of Shambhala” program. If you go to the following link of the December / January Halifax Shambhala Center Banner and read the page that has the curriculum and program schedule, I think there are enough experienced RFS readers to be able to get a feel for the new curriculum and decide if the new approach to Shambhala Training seems like a positive step. If you have further questions you can contact Carolyn Mandelker in the Shambhala International office of practice and study. She would probably appreciate the fact that individuals are interested in the process. The link is…….. And then go to page five (of the most recent Halifax Center Banner).
Mark Szpakowski on December 9th, 2009 9:41 pm

You can get to the December/January 2009/2010 Halifax Shambhala Centre Banner from this page.
rita ashworth on December 10th, 2009 9:29 am

Wow -thats quite shocking reading about HSC-hope things come together.

As Natalie asked about peoples opinions about HSC I would say be more pro-active with stuff with Halifax society generally ie seek out alliances with people.

The Quakers place in Manchester rents out their building for loads of stuff -thats how they keep going even in these troubled times. Also the people there are very socially aware and helpful and of course semi-political allowing no weird groups to use the building.

Maybe there needs to be more focus re alliances…..more planning around that…..maybe HSC has become too much of a refuge for people -that club mentality which you also find in the UK. Maybe it takes a recession to wake people up to their neighbours.

Well best from the UK…..hope things turn out ok

Best

Rita Ashworth
Jake on December 10th, 2009 8:35 pm

So I guess we can ignore my question about the guru, if it seems irrelevant, but let’s not spend time griping about the new curriculum. It’s in place, it’s probably not all bad, it’s just not something many of us like, or agree with.

How about some more practical considerations, like how to set up and coordinate study groups?
John on December 10th, 2009 10:15 pm

Jake, you mean the sangha leading the sangha?

The blind leading the blind?

Do 100 sentient beings equal one CTR, or a thousand or a million?
Jake on December 11th, 2009 6:59 am

so, again, the question of the place of a living guru in this setup of study groups, John. How about just answering the question directly?
rita ashworth on December 11th, 2009 9:18 am

Re the living guru item I remember the Regent stating that we were no different ultimately from the teachers in the lineage and although the Regent was not enlightened Trungpa did trust him to a certain extent with carrying on the lineage ie he was Trungpa’s dharma heir.

In the Zen tradition teachers seem to have many dharma heirs – Maezumi
Roshi had several – Ray briefly mentions this I believe on his podcast re passing the lineage down to westerners which I believe must occur earlier rather than later as time passes.

So I think we are in a period of transition – older students of CTR are students of other Tibetan lamas now perhaps at some stage in the near future a Tibetan lama might risk passing down the lineage to an other westerner. Who knows whats going on in their minds at present.

Also I was thinking again of the story about Trungpa stating he was the guru -perhaps everyone was interpreting what they heard -thats possible too -heres another interpretation that I thought of recently -could CTR have been saying I am the Guru three times as some form of transmission for the people there ie why say it for three times for example?

I dont know with someone like CTR he was teaching on so many levels all the time- so I dont think things can be so looked at so straightforwardly as many of us are ‘trying’ to do.

Best

Rita Ashworth
Charles Marrow on December 11th, 2009 10:38 am

Greetings, especially to Jake and John,

Thank you for bringing up the topic of the need for a living guru. My feeling on this topic is slightly addressed in the suggestion in my main article above about the sangha having a closer relationship to the Ven. Khenchen Thrangu Rinpoche, Ponlop Rinpoche and Mingyur Rinpoche, all of the Kagyu Lineage, Dzongsar Khyentse Rinpoche of the Sakya and Nyingma lineage and there are probably others that should be added to this list. This, of course, ignores the specific question of who would hold the Karma Kagyu tradition that Trungpa Rinpoche gave to the Vajradhatu Sangha. That is a complex question. Generally speaking, my personal input into comments will become more sketchy on RFS as I am beginning to focus on phone conversations and the possibility of having more meetings, practice sessions, etc. in a real live human smile, face to face, context. If anyone wishes to contact me for discussions, please post here with your complete name, phone number and where you live. Also, I am happy to receive phone calls at (902) 531-2491.
John on December 11th, 2009 12:56 pm

To Charles:

I have a great idea and that is to have a closer relationship with the 12th Trungpa Rinpoche.

Maybe we should focus our efforts on the 12th.

What do you think?

Am I right or wrong?
Michael Sullivan on December 11th, 2009 2:16 pm

Hmm. Trungpa XII is in Tibet. Given the Karmapa situation, how likely are the Chinese to allow a famous tulku to travel to the west?

In looking at the Konchok website, i didn’t see anything about him learning English. Although that isn’t a deal breaker, the clarity of CTR’s communication was a primary cause for the manifestation of his mandala. In Tibet, attending to the Surmang rebuild becomes a full-time job. The money ties to the West via Konchok / SI ensure that he stays on task and on message……

As to the other teachers mentioned, we need to bear in mind Tibetan manners and culture. It is hard to imagine a Tibetan teacher with a long-term connection to SI risking offending SI, and like it or not, any centrally organized VCTR-centric splinter group inviting major Kagyu / Nyingma teachers WILL offend SI. Especially if it is done on SI’s “turf”

On the other hand, small ad hoc, independent , home style groups – without a charismatic leader – are less likely to be viewed as a serious threat. They tend to be written off, a minor annoyance. When there is enough of those, then they can collaborate….

Has anyone actually asked any of the teachers mentioned about the issues raised on this site? Not in public, but in private?
John on December 11th, 2009 6:52 pm

To Michael Sullivan:

Its up to Trungpa X11 to decide what his task and message is. It is not up to SI/Konchok to decide it for him.

Has anyone sat down with the X11 and told him of his students around the world that love and need him. Does he known what his son as done to his legacy.

If we don’t fight for OUR GURU maybe we don’t really deserve him.

Where have all the Shambala warriors gone.

To dismiss Trungpa X11 is to truly break our SAMAYA with Trungpa X1.

No more , no less..
John Tischer on December 11th, 2009 7:46 pm

One thing VCTR said about obstacles: go around them.
Michael Sullivan on December 11th, 2009 7:48 pm

To John:

So when do you leave for Eastern Tibet? And how is your spoken Tibetan?
Any contacts in China to smooth his way out to visit the USA?

If you read the sites for konchok.org, he is close to SMR. And they ARE giving him at least some support. So you will just fall out of the sky and set him straight on that? Good luck sir….

I don’t think anyone is dismissing him at all. We don’t have access, and probably won’t for a long time. And CTR’s student’s samaya is not only with CTR, but with each other and with the teachings he gave. Those teachings are at risk of disappearing down the memory hole, or being spun into threads for a new cloth.
John Tischer on December 11th, 2009 8:43 pm

To M. S. You didn’t get what I said. It’s my fault. I ‘m sorry. J.
John on December 11th, 2009 9:48 pm

To Micheal Sullivan:

Michael I do truly feel your pain and sorrow. I to fear that his teachings are at risk of disappearing down the memory hole or being spun into threads for new cloth.

I will think long and hard into this night about your words.

My greatest fear is that I will have no answer to your words.
Becky Hazell on December 11th, 2009 11:56 pm

Charles Marrow’s recollections of what he says my exchange with CTR in 1985 was about are utterly inaccurate. He wasn’t there! The Sawang was never a topic of the conversation, which was entirely about how to regard the Regent, who at the time was the only candidate for future leadership that I knew about. I find the so-called disclaimer insulting. Anyone can start a misrepresentation by claiming that’s how he or she remembers it. Wouldn’t the truth be a lot better, i.e. since he claims he remembers me saying something I never said, would it not be the honorable thing to check with me first and get his facts straight? Instead, he has chosen to ignore me and the corrections I offered to him.
Michael Sullivan on December 12th, 2009 12:07 am

To John Tischer – I was responding to John, not to you. My mention of a “let 100 living room meditation groups blossom” scenario is a hypothetical way around the obstacle that needs to be dealt with.

To John:
I am not in terrible pain. I moved on long ago and study with another teacher – I know I need to work with a live human – but CTR stays on my shrine and is part of the guruyoga I do every day. I don’t want to see his teachings become a museum exhibit or a part of the pedigree – referenced but not lived.

He was a great Ati master who taught Ati in a style that transcended mere religiosity.
Ginny Lipson on December 12th, 2009 12:09 am

Re the 12th Trungpa Rinpoche….

I only know what I know, and that is only part of a big whole that I don’t know, and also involves my personal opinions. but….here it is:

Chokyi Senge, the 12th Trungpa Rinpoche is 20 years old, beautiful, (check out his latest photo on our web site’s home page) and getting a fantastic classic Tibetan education at Serta Institute (founded by HH Khenpo Jigme Phuntsok.) and an education in the classic Surmang traditions, at Surmang. He has come of age and is showing good leadership in his dealings with Surmang. He is expectantly waiting for the shedra to be finished, so he can take his seat there. He is a good Dharma student, leader and cares for the people of Surmang.

Sorry, I don’t really know what he thinks about his predecessor’s students in the West. I wish I did!!!

I do think that there is an organic order (or process) that must be followed. I agree with Michael S. that (for now) the 12th Trungpa should focus on the Surmang community, at least until it gets stronger; and his own continued learning, (including ESL, foreseen in the future, … once the shedra is open.) I also think the political situation with China may make it difficult for him to visit the West for quite a while.

Meanwhile, what an excellent time for him to mature, gain more practical and spiritual wisdom; and then… at some point in the future, maybe he COULD visit the West. People who feel devotion to the 12th Trungpa could perhaps appreciate that the situation is as it is… and at this stage, help him WHERE he is. (i.e. Please donate to KF to finish the shedra, or more specifically, to help support HIM.) This is the situation NOW.

SI is an umbrella group for Konchok Foundation, and has helped in the past via the Sakyong’s marathons. These days, we are pretty much on our own financially, feeling the financial crunch as the rest of the SI Sangha feels it.

It is an interesting question…. our devotion to the 12th Trungpa Tulku. He carries the energy of the Trungpas, but will he be the same as our Vidyadhara was to us?? Personally, I don’t think so. It is up to us to save the special legacy that the eleventh Trungpa left to us. AND to support and appreciate the 12th Trungpa for who he is. On the other hand, we obviously all have a right to our own variety of intuitive and devotional feelings and thoughts about him, of course.

We at KF really hope to open the Shedra in 2011. After that, perhaps it will be easier for people to visit. Later on, I hope, it WILL be possible for him to visit the West… He is only 20 now… there is time for the future to unfold… for him and for those of us who live that long.

(yikes!)
John on December 12th, 2009 2:47 pm

Hello Ginny:

Is Trungpa X11 receiving English lessons? If not why not?

The KF could also get a website up in Surmung Monastery and with skype he could start broadcasting teachings to his world wide sangha.

I have friends in China with skype so it is possible for Trungpa X11 to be online in a matter of weeks.

Ginny could you just imagine that in 2010 you and the people at KF could bring Trungpa X11 back to his students.

Could you also explain why SI, SMR and the Mukpo family is not spending its money on the reincarnation of CTR?

One would have thought that Trungpa X11 would be their number one, two, three etc priority and if not WHY NOT?

If Trungpa X11 is not our priority who is SMR?
Charles Marrow on December 12th, 2009 4:28 pm

Dear John,

You are recommending a specific course of action in regards to how we could better develop a relationship with Trungpa Tulku XII. It will probably be more effective and people are more likely to give more serious consideration to your ideas if you provide your full name, the community where you reside and your phone number. This would be more considerate for the useage of time for the RFS readers.

Also, in response to Becky Hazell’s concerns about my recounting of the story about the Vidyadhara I would like to say I stand by my account 100%. This is to say, Trungpa Rinpoche, in the context of that exchange in 1985 wanted to affirm his sumpremacy as guru even after his passing away and even in relationship to the (then) Sawang and the Vajra Regent. This is the point of the story which I stand behind. I will not burden the RFS readership with my reasons for this. Things can become petty too easily and people are going to believe what they believe regardless.

All the Best, Charles Marrow, Mahone Bay, Nova Scotia
John on December 12th, 2009 8:46 pm

Dear Charles:

I am so sorry that by not proving my full name, phone number and community where I reside is infringing on the useage of time for the RFS readers.

This site allows for a free and open discuss without any background security check done on those who wish to participate.

Is the messenger more important than the message or is just another way of of not addressing the message?
tsering on December 13th, 2009 2:08 am

He is GONE.We who had the great fortune to be in the hydrogen bomb of his vortex can only practice-realize until we can be the same! All the rest is fantasy/ BS .Forget about your projects! Won’t go anywhere anyway! Forget about this “site” and get on your cushion! The karmas set in motion by the 2nd Sakong will blossom as they may.You will definately be dead pretty soon.So stop complaining / whining ..Practice-realize-and manifest!!! THAT is what He would Appreciate. KOS was never in the past nor in the future.!
Charles Marrow on December 13th, 2009 12:31 pm

The wrathful activity of Padma Thotreng – Karma Pakshi is described in the Sadhana of Mahamudra in the well know passage:

“He subdues what needs to be subdued, he destroys what needs to be destroyed and he cares for whatever needs his care. His anger, devoid of hatred, is as fierce and terrible as if the three worlds were on fire…..”

Thanks to Tsering for interjecting that much needed energy.

Cheers…..Charles
Jake on December 13th, 2009 1:42 pm

Thanks for your response Charles. This is an exciting project. I would like to be involved!
Charles Marrow on December 14th, 2009 7:41 am

Greetings to everyone,

I am gradually making phone contacts and visiting friends in Halifax regarding this proposal. People are generally positive but, understandably, a bit cautious. The article above, posted here on RFS, is maybe, a bit similar to the first reading of a bill in a parlimentary process.

In my personal communications in the near future, I will be less active on this site but other things are definately happening. Jake (and certainly anyone else), please give me a call, (902) 531-2491, (I don’t use email as strange as it may sound). Jake’s interest in independent dharma groups is quite relevent and I am becoming aware of such groups sprinkled across the continent.

This proposal titled, “A Way Forward” is complex and very interesting to me personally. I am starting to get some step by step ideas and talking to like minded friends and I think we can, in the coming months, get some of the landmarks of the proposal implemented in a beneficial way.

In doing so, I hope to connect with the blessings of the Vidyadhara and the friendship of the sangha. In this way we can go forward and manifest a spiritual approach that gives practitioners a way to connect with the inspiration, teachings and practices given to us by Chogyam Trungpa Rinpoche.

Thanks to everyone for their interest, Charles
rita ashworth on December 14th, 2009 9:14 am

Dear Charles

Thanks for all the work you are doing in Halifax. I hope though you will keep people informed by way of rfs how things progress as it maybe relevant to what others are doing round the world in connection with propagating CTR’s teachings.

Although such things as what we doing regarding almost setting up a ‘different’ sangha and ‘projects’ take us somewhat away from practice I feel it is necessary to do this to get things off the ground.

Re finding a place to sit -churches of a reformed nature are very useful and usually very cheap plus they are neutral re dharma so you could access them for programmes at the weekend particularly on a Friday and Saturday.

On another tack just been reading the Mishap lineage where CTR comments to Allen Ginsberg in a Q &A session about the lineage being carried on by the sangha as an interim measure. Also there are some interesting points in there about how a tulku comes to be ie sometimes just by the teacher just doing ’something’ with another person by his/her use of ‘energies’ in their present lifetime.

- I recommend the book to everyone. It raises more questions than answers about lineage and is an interesting jumping off point for discussion.

Well best for now

Rita Ashworth
Barbara on December 15th, 2009 12:27 pm

John,

The 12th Trungpa was born near (that is, chose to be born near), and lives at Surmang, the ancestral seat of the Trungpa tulkus. He is already living with his students and teachers there. Surmang, of course, has been the seat of all the Trungpas, though one, the 11th, was forced to flee and subsequently made his life here.
The Sakyong has met with the 12th more than once and Shambhala has providing some support. I think it still is. I would think it should be entirely up to the 12th when, and whether and how he gives teachings to the Western students of the 11th.
Meanwhile, if you want to travel to Surmang and meet him personally, why don’t you? You wouldn’t be the first Shambhala student to make that journey, by any means.
John on December 15th, 2009 5:39 pm

Thanks Barbara for your kind comments and I hope to see the 12th next summer if I can arrange the necessary permits.
Jim Hartz on December 15th, 2009 6:35 pm

This is a response to Mark Hazell (and anyone else who might want to chime in) and his having co-lead a series of classes on the Sadhana of Mahamudra recently, and is a question about View–which is germane, I think, to the quality of light that guided us then, and which is guiding us now–the heart of the matter this site is addressing…
And I should say: I asked this question at a recent Kalapa Werma Class in Boulder, but the teacher refused to answer, taking it as a “comparative” Shambhala and Buddhism question, which he deigned not to respond to. Of course, as perusual, I was mainly concerned–if he had had the courage and daring to answer–with the “social,” “political economic,” and, generally speaking, “temporal” implications of the answer…
There is the line about “that great graveyard in which lie buried the complexities of samsara and nirvana.” Does that statement suggest a View in Buddhist language beyond “center” and “fringe,” and so a View associated with drala, Ultimate Court, and the Rigden principle? With Cosmic Mirror? Or is it verboten to make that kind of “Shambhala Buddhist” connection, thinking of that designation in this case as “not all bad,” to say the least, if it seems accurate?…
And what does that line from the Sadhana of Mahamudra mean, in practice? Is it the same as saying, “that great graveyard in which lie buried the complexities of absolute and relative truth,” or is that going too far, mixing Buddhist apples and Shambhala oranges? That would be important to determine, as the terms “absolute” and “relative” are getting alot of play these days, and seem to determine–that is, the View attendant upon that conventional usage determines–a good deal of sangha Actions nowadays…
And, in fact, that statement from the Sadhana of Mahamudra might represent a View beyond “center” and “fringe,” a view beyond “relative” and “absolute” which might lie at the heart of the problem Barbara Blouin pinpoints at the end of her “Out Of Balance” article. The part about a kind of privileging and build up on the side of “heaven” as opposed to “earth”–which is the same as saying, a privileging and build on the side of “center” as opposed to “fringe,” a privileging and build up on side of the “absolute” as opposed to the “relative,” a privileging and build up on the side of the “spiritual” as opposed to the “temporal.”…
And, obviously, the answer to that question has as much to do with the “world” as it does with our “community,” as anyone can see who has been paying attention to the Climate Summit taking place in Copenhagen, for example. Talk about the rule of “center” over “fringe”? Talk about the “degraded world” around the Three Courts: do we transcend that degraded world, in practice, or are we part of it? And I’m referring to “both camps” here, to oversimplify a bit. Where is the world “out there” in these endless discussions on RFS? What would the Vidyadhara have to say about that? Maybe that we’re “hopelessly religious”?…
In any case, we might want to recall this extremely important entry in the Vidyadhara’s diary from 1967: “There are many people that are more learned than I am, more elevated in their wisdom. However, I have never made a difference between the spiritual and temporal. If I understand the ultimate aspect of dharma, there is the ultimate aspect of temporal. And if I maintain the ultimate aspect of the temporal, this must be in harmony with the dharma. I alone am the one who presents the tradition of thinking this way.” And another thornier question: was the Vidyadhara’s practice always in sync with that marvellous theory?…
Rob Graffis on December 17th, 2009 4:14 am

As though relative and absolute awarness is a “secret”?
How can “Shambhala” be patented? I recall from ZEN MIND / BEGINNERS MIND (Sazuki Roshi) a chapter he explained bowing.( In the book he said non-verbatim “Sometimes I bow to dogs and cats”).
Rer read Lids and Flowers.
R/
Rob Graffis on December 17th, 2009 4:24 am

PS My repsons was not to you. you were on target.
My response was to those who wonder what the heck is going on.
Rob
Yeshe Tsomo on December 21st, 2009 11:45 pm

Just wanted to say Happy Winter Solstice to my RFS sisters and brothers.

God [insert here Great Mother/Emptiness or Prajnaparamita, if you wish] of all creation,
of bare forest and low northern skies,
of paths unknown and never to be taken,
of bramble, sparrow and damp, dark earth.
We thank you for loss,
for the breaking of the dimming year.
We thank you for light,
even in its seeming midwinter failing.
We thank you for life, for its hope and resistance,
Like a seed dying and living.

Rachel Mann

I am at home with family for the holidays, wishing I could be at dathun, but heeding the call to be where life is asking me to be. Dharma Ocean posts quotes from Reggie Ray on Facebook. This quote below is from his dathun talk yesterday. I was so moved by it, I wanted to share it with you.

Blessings to all of you,

Theresa

“We should all be like him [Chögyam Trungpa]. We should be so much ourselves that we change the world.” – Reggie Ray
dean misthummus on December 24th, 2009 1:30 am

reggie ray is a self aggrandizing charlatan who has manipulated the teachings for his own benefit. It wouldn’t be so sad if he hadn’t pulled the wool over so many eyes. those students of his have been duped into being tools of conformity and complacency brought on by a fierce sense of incorrect spiritual superiority. You see, they think that they are so right that they don’t have to deal with the relative world. go fool around with him if you want, but you are making it harder for the rest of us.
Yeshe Tsomo on December 24th, 2009 10:06 am

Dear Dean,

One thing I like about RFS is the wildly differing opinions among Trungpa Rinpoche’s sangha, some of whom seem actively connected to SI, some of whom are not so much anymore, and some of whom, like me, never connected with SI. Though the dialogue has sometimes been heated and angry to a point that it is uncomfortable for me, I find the honesty preferable to engaging in a group or organization in which very little, if anything, is questioned or discussed.

When I have brought up Reggie in my posts, it has not been for any other reason than to put my relationship to Trungpa Rinpoche and the greater sangha into context. I did not enter into the stream in the “typical” way, I think. Still, Trungpa Rinpoche is my teacher, and for me, my connection to Reggie helps nourish my relationship to CTR.

As a student of Reggie’s, I am not sure how I am a tool of conformity or complacency. Conformity to whom? Reggie? Hardly. It has been a hard- fought battle for me to come to a place where I question everything, and I do mean everything. I have devotion to the path of awakening. I have devotion to Trungpa Rinpoche as a teacher, though I am still questioning him and testing his teachings. Do I question Reggie? Regularly, as do all of his students that I know.

A tool of complacency? I am not sure what you mean by that. I have been complacent in my life around all kinds of issues. It is very difficult to be a student of CTR and be complacent about your practice and your spiritual path; if I have not done my part to sustain the connection to him and the lineage, my life and practice becomes stagnant and the universe has not failed to give me feedback about where I am avoiding reality or where I have otherwise dropped the ball.

Finally, I don’t think I am “so right that I don’t have to deal with the relative world”. How can any of us avoid dealing with the relative world? It is smack in our face all of the time. Neither do I regularly think I am “right” about much. I think I have exerted a lot of effort to uncover the path I am meant to walk, but I don’t expect that my path and yours will be the same, even though we both may have a deep and genuine connection to CTR and to each other. Otherwise, I am not sure what relative world you think I am avoiding.

I am sorry if you think that my studying with Reggie makes your path more difficult. I am not sure how that is possible, except if you are angry that Reggie did not stay and fight to make changes within SI and it set a precedence for senior students to leave rather than work from within the system. If that is your position, I can understand why you might be upset. Because I have grappled with how to bring about change in other organizations, including other sanghas, I have been so grateful to the RFS community, where you are addressing some of the most fundamental issues of human beings working together in groups. And so many of you are doing so from the place of many years of experience of working and studying with CTR intimately. I have much to learn. (continued.)
Yeshe Tsomo on December 24th, 2009 10:18 am

But since you think Reggie is a charlatan, I am not sure why you would have preferred he stay. Regardless, it is my hope that my path of study and practice will bring a measure of peace to my little corner of the world. And it is my profound aspiration that one day my practice and my life will be of benefit to all beings.

Other than my response to you, I have no need or intention to bring Reggie into this forum, other than citing my reference points to CTR and the greater sangha. So, my apologies if this post was “off-track” for most of you. Trusting that you will just skip over what is not useful.

I appreciate you honesty Dean and wish you well on your journey.

Theresa Luttenegger (Yeshe Tsomo)
rita ashworth on December 31st, 2009 12:33 pm

Dear All

Just been reading the minutes for HSC finance meeting, like you do(!) –what a spiky encounter with so many ‘experienced’ people around –it must have been quite nutty and Energy inspiring to be there.

What do meetings like this bode for HSC and the greater mandala of CTR’s teachings in the world. Is interest in the Buddhas teachings peaking? Its very strange whats going on in the world generally. Even with Buddhism which I saw as ‘the’ answer to everything
in my teenage years is being questioned and prodded mercilessly –people are becoming shirty and defiant. Perhaps this should be happening –perhaps it points a way to engage with people in a more down to earth manner –as everyone is now aware of their political and religious place in the world re the media and the electronic village concept.

There is now no place where the ‘leaders’ can hide……..thats great. So it calls for engagement with the Other as Satre often points out in his philosophy of existentialism.The Others for SI are other religions, other viewpoints, other visions of the Kingdom of Shambhala. Can SI jump into that – or has stasis been reached. I think it is up to SI to
really evaluate where it is at –do you want a Kingdom on your terms or a Kingdom that embodies the concept of Other within it. This is also a question for leaders of the world everywhere.

Well -what next my friends?

Best for 2010

Rita Ashworth
UK
John Tischer on January 6th, 2010 2:23 pm

“The Sakyong’s new program is bringing in, and processing people at a break neck speed.”

From Dharmabrats website.

“processing”?
rita ashworth on January 7th, 2010 2:28 pm

Dear John

Hmmmm re processing – I am not against processing depends on the teacher doing that – well what do we mean by processing – the educational propagation of the dharma and shambhala–depends on how you do it.

Of course SI has a headstart on the processing system because they have been doing it for a long time but dissenters could evolve new processing systems aswell depends on the quality of people involved and the manner of teaching.

I think processing occurs in a dharma context quicker because of the environment of a dharma centre and the meditational process –it is a multisensory experience as the educationalists say.

However SI has not fostered the spirit of western debate very well –that’s why we have one concept of the Shambhala kingdom only. We the dissenters need to look into debating the whole concept of a shambhalian culture, politics and hierarchy more closely and I think it is up to the older students to start that debate off in any way they can particularly by writing about it in books and articles. I think there would be takers from editors at publishing houses and magazines to source material on shambhala ideals, way of life –why leave the whole concept of shambhala in the Shambhala publication field there a lot more receptive people out there for stuff.

Yeh processing – did CTR mention a comment on brainwashing – I am sure I read something about that somewhere – some wry comment. Of course it is up to the participant in SI to discern whether they are getting Macdonalds processing or Rolls Royce processing-whether things are flitting through their heads at an alarming rate and they are going gaga or whether the processing is more wholesome.

Myself I need some nutty, gritty debate about Shambhala –sort of crunching processing.

Of course one is processed but one should be totally happy –sad at the end of it …….processing now seems to be encumbent on dollars and that kind of processing is very suspicious.

On another tack did you read the minutes of the honchos meeting on Halifax Shambhala centre very nutty processing there………yes some one has to be responsible for the processing –or no-one will get processed – we will be in processlessness state and that is not doubtlessness I am sure!

Well John –best for the New Year –ho-ho

Rita Ashworth
John Tischer on January 7th, 2010 3:04 pm

Processing sounds like a new age psychological term…as well, I think of a meat processing plant.,
my point being that if one has an idea that Buddhism/
Shambhala is about processing to achieve a “goal”
or “product”, the kind of assumption that goes along with those types of words is nothing but materialism.
That these kinds of words are slipping into the dialogue
as assumptions tells me there is systemic misunderstanding of the teachings going on.
ashoka on January 7th, 2010 10:33 pm

Still stalkin’ the playroom huh John.

The person who made that post holds down his three kids and friends with a gentleness, dignity, and genuineness that I’ve admired for many years. He’s as close to what I conceive of as a warrior of almost anyone I know, Buddhist or not. That may or may not pertain to that specific comment, but am I wrong in thinking that the phrase “processing” is actually a very reasonable description of the effect of practice and study?

“New Age Psychological” is so far from that person’s personality it’s funny. More internet mistranslation I guess.
El Herrero Viejo on January 7th, 2010 11:21 pm

Dear Ashoka whomever-you-think-you-are,
Your arrogance, and obvious immaturity, is absolutely unparalleled on this site, as elsewhere. Breathtaking, in fact.
I don’t know you. I have no interest in knowing you.
You evidently think you are a big, big man, and have big, big credentials, or whatever, to expound and carry on the way you do.
As Trungpa Rinpoche said, so many years ago, to a large auditorium of Werner Erhard’s “est-ians”: “…you have been sooooo deceived.”
But we are not.
Who do you think you are you kidding?
Wake up. Grow up.
Love to you!
John Tischer on January 8th, 2010 11:06 am

Ashoka,

I’m glad that is a good person that does good things, but that’s irrelevant
to what that person communicates.

“but am I wrong in thinking that the phrase “processing” is actually a very reasonable description of the effect of practice and study?”

Yes, I think you are wrong.

VCTR said “We’re not trying to make things better.” Practice is, yes, to
develop positive tendencies and eliminate negative obstacles….but it’s not that we change what we are…and the path has no end, so there’s no end to the process….

It’s just one word, but it implies an assumption: if we complete the Shambhala Path, we’ll Be “processed”… like “clears” in EST…then
we’ll have a nice little credential.
jason meibus on January 8th, 2010 11:28 am

The term processed comes directly from Trunpa Rinpoche. In his description of the obstacles and antidotes for shamatha practice one of the antidotes is shinjang, which he describes as “thoroughly processed”. seminary transcript 78, maybe 76. I guess CTR didn’t know his own teachings again. You all should study more.
John Tischer on January 8th, 2010 11:38 am

The way he uses the term it’s just stage on the path, not an end point….
it’s a different meaning than how it’s been seen in this discussion….you should study more.
Ashoka on January 8th, 2010 12:18 pm

I didn’t take that from his comment at all John. Lord knows there aren’t many (any?) folks walking around who have fully learned to rest in basic wakefulness at all times (my interpretation of “thoroughly processed”), and I don’t think at all that he meant anything like “cleared” at all. I have seen that word used in the vidyadhara’s writings as a description of what happens when we’re brave enough to incorporate shambhala vision and shamatha into our lives, and I think that’s how it was used there.

I described his personality (I never used the word “good”), to point out that if we are relying only on the Internet to gauge the sincerity or openness of one another, we are going to experience a lot of misinterpretations. I’m sure I’m guilty of that as well. If you were to look him in the eye or speak to him you would probably feel much less freaked out about what you think he’s about. It’s a little sad, honestly, for everyone, that there occasionally seems to be so few opportunities for people in both “camps” (are there “camps”?) to communicate with one another face to face, on the spot. Misunderstandings like this really do seem to be at least partially due to the medium of the Internet and a lack of familiarity with each other as human beings. That is certainly an old story for human communities.
El carpintero joven on January 8th, 2010 2:01 pm

El Herrero Viejo,

Tara, just quit it. Really.
ashoka on January 8th, 2010 2:23 pm

Tara (Carreon?) wouldn’t quote the Vidyadhara.

I do understand how some on this site would feel the way he/she does about me. I regret the lack of gentleness with which I may have approached some of the participants here a year ago, and I apologize for that. Most of us are in some sense vajra brothers or sisters, despite the age gap, and I don’t want to exacerbate any distance or suspicion that already exists. My contribution was not intended to be disruptive, but since I know the author of that post I thought I could shed a little light on his comment. I hope everyone has a joyful new decade. At least until the aliens come down in 2012 and rapture us all into their moon-based uranium mines.
damchö on January 8th, 2010 3:02 pm

ashoka: “Misunderstandings like this really do seem to be at least partially due to the medium of the Internet and a lack of familiarity with each other as human beings. That is certainly an old story for human communities.”

Amen / svaha!

Language always matters of course. I agree with John that we need to keep looking into these dharma words we use, to see what difference they might make to our understanding and path. These kinds of discussion can be quite helpful. I agree with you also ashoka: disembodied communication requires even more leeway and benefit of the doubt than usual. Thanks for your posts.

Joyful new decade to you too, and indeed as you say, to all.
John Tischer on January 8th, 2010 3:25 pm

The way the Vidyadhara uses “thoroughly processed” is in terms of the Hinayana Path and has nothing to do with complete realization. I’m pointing to the tendency that has been debated on this site ad nauseam of “cherry picking” the teachings, which is to take an idea out of context (Vidyadhara’s
teachings) and use it to justify one’s argument.. The prime example of this
is Shambahla Buddhism…..justified by one one reference in one talk the
Vidyadhara gave which was not meant to be taken literally, when for 10
years before the Vidyadhara asserted that they were separate paths.

“Cherry picking” is the same as editing…which the Vidyadhara warned us about. It’s heeding the words and not the sense of the teachings.

I admire some of the older Acharyas that still teach Shambhala with the
same spirit as in the days of the Vidyadhara.I guess they “got it”, while those of who criticize SMR didn’t.

2 questions:

!. How will the authentic teachings of Shambhala continue to be transmitted from generation to generation in the light of this editing?

2. Does it matter? There will be future generations and presumably
future Sakyongs. In the history of Buddhism, we see that some enlightened fellow (or lady) comes along from time to time to bring
the teachings back to their authenticity. The myth of Shambhala is
too big and powerful for any one person to control it, I believe.
jason meibus on January 8th, 2010 9:17 pm

John, will all due respect, you have gone on kind of a wild tangent. Shinjang, thoroughly processed, was not even a necessarily Hinayana context. It was in the context of shamatha. Essentially it was a state of having worn out coarse neurosis, similiar to what CTR describe as feeling the flat bottmom of your thoughts, and having gone through what he described as experiencing “the ape instinct of ego”. I’m afraid that I don’t remeber which obstacle it was provided as an antidote to. (obstacles and antidotes to shamatha, 78 whitebook) It was the fourth of a list of four, the first of which was faith.
Given the nature of the first statement “The Sakyong’s new program is bringing in, and processing people at a break neck speed.”
While the statement seems a bit over exuberant, it does seems to just be a complimentary, way of using the term, but the meaning is the same.
I have heard the term used colloquially for the Dhathun experience for years, and have used it that way myself. It can’t be called editing in this context.
rita ashworth on January 9th, 2010 8:10 am

Dear All

Re the term processing – I was thinking of it more in western terms –there is the educational process and educational processing. In my life I think I have gone through both.

Educational processing seems to me to be targeting people to pass things at the state’s appropriate time not when the student actually needs it ie when I was almost metaphorically chained to my desk at 11 to pass stupid English and Maths exams –so that I would either enter the middle-class grammar school or not.

Now on the other hand the educational process seems to be when you engage with the Other to examine both your worlds as I did at college when I sat in a room discussing Descartes Discourse on Method with a Rabbi in training, a young Hindu lady, me a Buddhist, a Christian and of course the exuberant punk rocker who was partially hung over from the night before. Due to the experience of the lecturer and him telling jokes we were all in to the debate over Descartes philosophy.

Now I do take the point that the discussion has gone to ‘thoroughly processed’ in the context of shinjang but is it also possible to widen the debate in the sense of what does the shambhalian person need to know to develop their own path in the world?
Could we talk more widely about it without getting into the various ‘camps’ that Ashoka has mentioned. I think but I don’t know for sure that Ashoka and others are into investigating this aspect with perhaps a wider flavour of the worlds religions than Buddhism, Shambhala Buddhism or Vajradhara/God knows what.

For example in the minutes at HSC Carolyn Gimian made an interesting comment at the end of her spiel on money and finance ie “We need to address peoples spiritual needs”.

Now what are spiritual needs –that we can get a practice that will be successful for us –that we think we are following the right path and the werma sadhana will bring us all we want in the world. It’s a tricky thing spiritual needs –has anyone asked the people of Halifax about it. Most people in Hailifax that I knew when I was there just wanted a happy life, food in their stomachs and a job. If HSC doesn’t address this spiritual need any talk of sadhanas doing this and that for us is quite mad. So spiritual needs, processing, processed, process, shinjang ………….zzzzzzzz……..the world, society is looking for more. We need more discussions about these things.

Well best from the UK

Rita Ashworth
Stockport UK
Michael Sullivan on January 9th, 2010 11:21 am

While the relentless cynic in me wants to yell “meat and credit cards” I think everyone is over-analyzing a simple comment. Someone on the inside sensing that SI’s efforts are bringing in more new students who are then following the recommended program.

Different strokes for different folks. Not my cup of tea but that is old news….
John Tischer on January 9th, 2010 1:12 pm

Buddhism is a path, not a definable “process” with a beginning and an end. It’s not just different strokes. The Buddhist path is uncertain,unquantifiable,
and endless. Being clear does matter. Some other excellent teachers we
know are starting to be highly critical of SI. They see it as not furthering
the Vidyadhara’s teachings but the opposite. Maybe it shouldn’t matter to
loyal students of SMR, but it raises more questions. There is no debate and never has been with SI in terms of questions people have with them. Yes, at the end of the day, SI will just proceed based on the leadership of SMR. None of what we say will affect it. None of the criticisms of others will affect it. Eventually the older students will tire of the discussion and move on. It’s already happening. Right now, I could not recommend anyone to the Shambhala path the way it’s being presented.
Michael Sullivan on January 9th, 2010 3:20 pm

I hear what you are saying John but my “different strokes” was more reflective of the many (84000?) possible paths. differing paths for differing students, each suitable. What works for me might not work for you. I personally think that separate Shambhala and Kagyu and Nyingma paths taught by CTR are a reflection of that.. There is no best path, just a best path for a specific individual since everyone has their own capacity and karma
John Tischer on January 9th, 2010 7:01 pm

I agree..and each separate path is distinct. Mixing Shambhala and Buddhism has weakened both of them…as far as SI goes…In my opinion.
richard heilbrunn on January 10th, 2010 9:31 am

as a new pilgrim here, just opening my eyes to the Great Eastern Sun and the Shambhala vision, i find these discussions very interesting. if we were to agree that there are many levels to this vajra mandala and that an enlightened society should embrace and benefit all sentient beings, we should be able to find some common ground. i look to many of you who were privileged to sit at the feet of Chogyam Trungpa for light and share the nature of his teachings. living in indiana much of my contact to the lineage is through reading and the internet. i see the impact of SI in attracting new members to this vision and for a basic understanding of buddhism. i am not real familiar with reggie ray but obviously there are pearls of wisdom that can be gleamed there.

it appears Trungpa Rinpoche left us with conflict and it continues to propagate. as we look for direction should we expect that Trungpa XII is obligated to carry on this tradition in the west, or are we as a community responsible to attract his attention. to do this some positive action with clear intention would seem to be a good place to start.

IMHO
for the benefit of All
respectfully

richard heilbrunn
rita ashworth on January 11th, 2010 9:44 am

I think the word process has come up as a sign of auspicious co-incidence because it needs to be debated in the context of politics and society.

For example yes we do have the 84,000 teachings of Buddha and different strokes for different folks but we also have the concept of now ‘enlightened society’ – to me that is an all encompassing vision for the world at the present times and how it manifests is our of course relevant to most of us.

To me the concept of an enlightened society knows no borders you could say politically it is a concept for world revolution and not state by state revolution. So this where Trungpa’s take on things from primordial wisdom crosses somewhat with ‘visions of utopia’ that have been discussed in the past.

To manifest enlightened society for me requires that you allow all different takes on it to flourish in the world and strangely this aspect of ‘flourishment’ will come from both secular and religious experiments that are going on now and have gone on in the past.

Revolution and shambhala may seem like opposite strands of a vision for society but I think they have to meld more before our very eyes otherwise there is little sense of heaven.

In North America the concept of revolution is often seen as an anthenma to conducting ones politicals affairs but I think in these times it will have to be looked into on that side of the pond. Obama’s election is a footstep in this American revolution.

In Europe revolution is looked upon more favourably …….I think this is one aspect of why Midal might have left SI and Ray too because conservatism was setting in. I think yes to have an enlightened society you have to start discussing revolutionary concepts from the ground up.

Question is praxis -process in politics – I have forgotten the definition of this word – I think praxis is process.

Best

Rita Ashworth
Stockport UK
rita ashworth on January 13th, 2010 1:41 pm

“Is their anyone listening as I knocked against the door………”

I just checked Praxis on wikipaedia and it came up with some interesting things –notably the Praxis School which Erich Fromm was involved in. I believe Trungpa read Fromms book on society in 1968 –so that is a connection with Praxis.

Praxis school basically tried to reinterpret Marxism with a more humanistic face……not the state monopoly of China and Russia.-so yeh the discussion of process in politics is relevant to the construction of an enlightened society.

It would be great if some one could sum up Trungpa’s connection to Fromms book for rfs contributors so that we could debate process and politics more acutely than has been done in the past. I also think Trungpa knew quite a bit about political philosophy in the west and that we have not gone deeply into this aspect of his knowledge in relation to the spread of new forms of society. I don’t think he was against revolution but rather a revolution in consciousness affecting the strata of society. I hope others particularly older students could go into this more on rfs.

I wonder if some of Fromms students are in the states perhaps they could be enticed to write something on the connection of the Praxis school with the construction of a diverse society and its reglious bases.

Yeh revolution does not have to be with violence…….it can spread in many ways……yeh revolution starts when people realise their idea of an enlightened society is not fixed but changeable according to debate and meditation.

I also think revolution comes about when people just don’t buy ‘your’ message anymore –witness the HSC meeting on finance……to me each of those people at that meeting must really examine their consciences politically in relation to the spread of the teachings in NS.

Best

Rita Ashworth
Edward on January 13th, 2010 11:48 pm

The reality of pain or suffering is one of the basic principles of the hinayana, the foundational teachings of Buddhism. There is suffering and pain– someone actually has to say that.

- Chögyam Trungpa Rinpoche

Rita writes:
so yeah the discussion of process in politics is relevant to the construction of an enlightened society.

Rita,
I think the first thing to realize about politics is that most of us, maybe 99.9999999% of us human beings, are busy all day long– from the time we open our eyes in the morning until we lay our head on the pillow at night– trying to avoid pain and achieve some new distraction to occupy ourselves with.

As long as that’s the case… we might as well *be* slaves! Essentially we are slaves, slaves of our habitual patterns.

In that condition, we are easy to manipulate, easy to “rule” over, if you will. Don’t you agree? As long as we’re afraid of pain and afraid of ourselves, we’re pretty much just suckers, aren’t we? We’re not even all that functional at working with each other to handle business. Instead we look for saviors, quick fixes, dogmas to cling to. Fancy guys in flashy clothes.

Oh my god, did you see that piece of ass over there? Did you hear about the WMD’s amassed by Iraq? Have you seen this week’s political candidate who’s going to solve everything? What about that new movie I heard was da bomb?

We’re all over the place, many of us. We buy everything, we fall for every sales pitch. The only thing we rarely buy is practice. Sitting still. Feeling the disatisfaction, the frustration, dissapointment. How fucked up everything is!! Truly. And there’s really not much we can do about it. Realizing that most of the schemes we’ve got going just aren’t going to work out. Feeling all the painful crap we don’t want to deal with. Realizing that the world is full of con artists just like us!! Surprisingly enough.

Maybe humanity isn’t ready for political freedom yet. Maybe we need to be ruled over. Kept amused, entertained. Hmm?

I think before we get too fancy about political notions we first might want to spend a minute facing facts– like the inevitability of suffering. Speaking for myself at least.

Otherwise every political solution is just another con. Are we conning ourselves? Or being conned by someone else? All depends on how you look at it.

As the director at my Level I weekend said, we are afraid of the vividness of our own experience.

As long as I’m hanging out in that kind of place, I don’t feel qualified to engage you in a discussion about politics. Politics is just one more hopeful thing on my menu of possible distractions. You think you’re talking to me about politics, but you’re only talking to my cocoon.

. . . .

Hey. Wasn’t this thread supposed to be about starting up new practice groups devoted to Trungpa Rinpoche’s teachings? I’m almost hurting bad enough that I’m ready to start helping with that.
rita ashworth on January 14th, 2010 1:17 pm

Hi Edward nice to hear from you again!

Re politics no I don’t find it a distraction from meditation merely I see the process of politics as developing from the meditation practice itself perhaps here one could say that the Mahayana is ‘more’ political in that we are out in the world interacting with others.

Of course I am not talking party politics – I am talking about the politics that Erich Fromm discusses in the Sane Society – I ordered a copy of this book last night perhaps people who read rfs could read it also and we could discuss it. Rinpoche was very excited by this book when he read it in what was it Bhutan –there is a report on this on the Chronicle Project.

Re the way forward –people are organising – I am organising stuff – but the way forward I also hope will be discussing the political formation of groups ie people really having a share in the way things are governed –so it wont be a torturous path as is happening now in SI but a joyous path because people will really be involved in it –they will discuss what they want with the teachers…….more accommodation for people in the west will have to happen – we are not a rural society and our education, our politics and our religions are diverse. A future guru, teacher perhaps will have to consult with us more that does not mean that we wont have the rug pulled out from underneath our feet by the teacher of course one has to be open to that but the way I saw it happening with Trungpa he always emphasised our critical intelligence.

John Tischer mentioned the process thingie – I did not but I though it was apt to comment on it because process is in all in the western philosophies and politics…….do you know the Vatican even sent people to this Praxis School near Yugoslavia –everyone was into discussing ‘politics’ at that time. There is an absence of political discussion in SI and there needs to be more happening regarding this……..yes meditation links us to all disciplines whether in the arts or the sciences……have you listened to Robin Kornman discuss this on google video for example. So yeh the way forward will have to be political, artistic, philosophical etc etc…….otherwise meditation is a bit mad without this context …….hence as they say ‘enlightened society’.

Best

Rita Ashworth
Edward on January 14th, 2010 2:09 pm

Hi Rita,

My old teacher wrote essays and gave talks about politics, and created many situations for us to explore political issues. So yes, I agree that politics can (and perhaps must) go hand in hand with meditation and mindfulness.

Essentially, if I can summarize what my teacher said in a nutshell, it was that if we are afraid of the vividness of our own experience, then we’ll never solve any political issues, with each other or on a larger scale. He used different language than Trungpa Rinpoche but the idea was pretty much exactly the same, as far as I can tell.

“Sakyong Mipham” seems to promote an environment where people don’t question things and see him as a kind of perfect savior. That’s fine, to each his own– there’s no accounting for taste, as they say. But the effect of this will likely be that over time, more and more people will gravitate to the organization he runs who like that kind of thing. If someone else comes along and questions SMR’s decisions, it will be perceived as an evil attack on the savior, etc. etc. Even if that person helped found the organization 30 or 40 years ago, at this point it’s too late– to use a legal metaphor we can say CTR’s students have largely abandoned the organization and SMR has taken possession, or so it seems to me as a relative outsider.

I could be wrong but it doesn’t seem worthwhile to hold out for the possibility of incredible new breakthroughs in open dialogue and political transformation. It is what it is, as a friend of mine used to say. Work with the situation, make the best of it, but don’t expect some kind of radical revolution, unless it’s in the direction of more watering down and eliminating of what made CTR’s organizations unique and special.

It would be great if I was wrong, deluded, blinded by ego and projecting my own illusions onto all this, and wrong about SMR. That would be fantastic, I’d eat my hat. The reality is that it’s very, very, very difficult to run a spiritual organization in this dark age, or in any age for that matter, and the signs aren’t really there that the folks running SI want to have financial resources and input and discussion flow in from people outside the “boundaries”, outside the fort, so to speak. Too many things would have to change, and they’d really have to change at the very highest level, for any of that to happen. The folks under the top guy are more about PR than decision-making, I think.

SMR seems happy with the way things are, and most of CTR’s students have found other solutions, other sanghas that they’re satisfied with.

Charles Marrow provided a brilliant proposal here, on this very webpage, and unless there’s a lot of discussion going on somewhere else that I don’t know about, his proposal doesn’t seem to be generating much responsiveness.

His proposal is the only real solution I see, but the amount of real discussion it generated here on this website might be a sign of where people are at, what kind of political change is likely to happen otherwise, as far as SI goes.
rita ashworth on January 16th, 2010 7:35 am

Hi Edward –its strange but yes I think you have a good grasp of what is going on perhaps it comes from your involvement with your previous teacher.

Still though I think it would be good to discuss ‘politics’ as one means of the way forward –its an informative discussion for people to enter into. Maybe even on rfs texts that Trungpa Rinpoche wrote on the formation of a society could be displayed so that people are aware of different points of view –then perhaps we could have a holistic view of the whole thing.

A lot of my questioning comes from my background brought up in a working class district of Manchester where people have had to fight for what they have got which now again under the present government is turning to very little which is a great shame.

This condition of society is also prevalent in Nova Scotia where when I was there in 1991 to 1995 I talked with teachers that did not teach, architects that did not build and where the population was woefully served by medical service and government riven with patronage. This condition of affairs is of course not conducive to an enlightened society – I think an enlightened society becomes more ‘enlightened’ by discussion, however small, and sometimes yes it needs people in ‘authority’ to start the ball rolling. If this discussion is perceived as a threat we are out of the ‘conception’ of enlightened society from the very beginning. Nova Scotia, its history is a prime example of discussion not happening of stasis atrophying the progress of society –it is almost becoming a mirror image of what is happening in our religious institutions around the world.

To me the vision for Shambhala is diverse, for example, it struck me when I got off the train on a work day just looking around Manchester it is full of different races and religious persuasions – I passed Sikhs, Muslims, Jewish people in the streets –this is our society our society is concretely diverse. How is Shambhala supposed to work with this aspect of the world – yes we can not be tied into one path, one way –the world is not like that –look out of your window. Perhaps we should not even call it shambhala perhaps that is too defined already, perhaps we need some new word for what we attempting to do –think one up!

Yes Trungpa Rinpoches vision was very large – I don’t think we can clip it down into pieces – the vision in 2010 for the world needs to become very large indeed again.

Best

Rita Ashworth
Edward on January 18th, 2010 12:32 pm

Hi Rita,

I think as far as politics goes, in general we have two options: we can rule ourselves, or we can ask someone else to rule over us.

Ruling ourselves doesn’t mean getting everything we want, or achieving victory over our enemies. It doesn’t mean the people in Manchester will get all the bank notes and government services that they might feel they need. It doesn’t mean getting people to do what we want them to do, or achieving the political goals we desire, “fixing” the world to suit our preferences.

Maybe ruling ourselves means making friends with our world? Maybe it means being grateful to our enemies for trying to help us wake up? I have a friend who said it took going to prison to help him wake up.

Most people would rather be ruled by someone else than rule themselves, and that’s why the world is the way it is.

Any time we’re using aggression to relate to our world, we’re expressing our unreadiness to rule ourselves, and our need to be ruled by someone else. There are good people out there– bankers, politicians, technocrats, scientists, advertisers, military– who are more than willing to rule over us. They’re willing to keep us entertained, ignorant, broke– whatever we require, really, if that’s how we want to live. We’re lucky to have their help.

We’re lucky to have the man known as Sakyong Mipham, maybe. Are you sure you want to practice the Shambhala teachings and make them available to all others? Wouldn’t you rather have a savior in shiny silk clothing take care of you, tell you what to think, and refashion CTR’s teachings into something far more glamorous, easy, watered down, and restricted to Buddhists only? Perhaps many of us prefer that. (I have to conclude that that’s in fact the case, based on the evidence.) But how wonderful to be given these options. The beauty of external rulers is that they take responsibility away from us for our own actions, apparently.

Milarepa didn’t finish waking up until a lot of difficult people came along, people who didn’t seem very “supportive”. The more he began trying to rule himself, the more difficult the tests became. I’m not sure we can say that politically his life got “better and better” the more he practiced.

But after a while, he was grateful, grateful that his world was so kind to him.
rita ashworth on January 23rd, 2010 9:49 am

Hi Edward –thanks for your further post –now that I am at the weekend I have a chance to reply.

I have been thinking of your posts re politics and religions/meditation.

It seems to me that both these spheres of life require that ‘concept’ of fearlessness found in the Shambhala teachings. So where is the political act with Milarepa perhaps when he put his head in the demons mouth – I suppose you could see this metaphorically or historically but it really does not matter how you see it to find some good basic instruction from it. So I suppose the lesson is fearlessness if people act in this manner politically or religiously things life as we know it seems to turn out for the ‘better’ –the betterness is a spin off from the fearlessness.

However you could fail in your endeavour politically as Che Guevara did –sorry about the leap from Milarepa to Che –somewhat incongruous –but its really amazing how many people of all political aspirations were impressed by this man –his fearlessness in the world, his altruism for others. A true warrior? Nevertheless you find people quoting from his actions all the time in Latin America so he must obviously have made a good impression. For example I am interested in theatre and have been reading stuff that Augustus Boal has written in ‘Theatre of the Oppressed’ and even he quotes stuff from Che.

So you could almost write a formula fearlessness equals political consciousness in its most widest sense which results in discussion, debate, altruism, concern for others with betterment as the result. Ground, path, and fruition I think and of course subsequently the way forward is from fearlessness or first thought for society.

I hope others will comment but it is still good to have these debates with you Edward.

Best

Rita Ashworth
John Tischer on January 23rd, 2010 7:48 pm

Rita

You are bringing all kinds of things into the discussion
which are peripheral….,maybe not relevant.

Not that it seems to matter…people seem to be loosing interest in the debate…which may be a sign of health.

Now SMR has come out with a tome…900 pages…

“Profound”

only look at what you have to go through to get it.

Well, it’ s been good for me here…and it’s been good for us. I hope we all find what we’re looking for.
rita ashworth on January 25th, 2010 9:23 am

Dear John

Thank you for your comment – I was trying to be as concise as possible in my reply to Edward re politics.

Yes I am interested in politics and their execution in an enlightened society and I think the way forward will have to get to grips with discussing political ideas and methodology afterall thats what Rinpoche did when he read the Sane Society in India ( I have got the book -will let you know what I think of it when I read it -hope people can read it)

Yes the periphery -at this moment in time it is a good place to be – I think a lot of meditators are talking about peripheral things on the periphery -even may be within SI aswell. Who and where are the peripherists!

Re the new book -900 pages(!) jeez – I remember talking down a five minute talk by Trungpa Rinpoche when he was at Friends House giving a talk on the Dharma to 1,000 -when I listened to it back – the whole path was described in the talk -so the manigtude of the opus may or may not deliver – I dont know and also one only has to look at the Heart Sutra to find a concise ‘definition’ of sunyata.

So I think the debate has just started…….may be like with communism and other political theories the debate will last hundreds of years.

Best

Rita Ashworth
Jim Wilton on January 25th, 2010 12:41 pm

I know — I had the same reaction — 900 pages! Kind of like J.K. Rowling’s novels. It took two and a half days to read the lung.

I fairness, what we know as the Heart Sutra is a condensation of a condensation — very pith teachings. The longer Heart Sutra teachings take up volumes.
John Tischer on January 25th, 2010 1:18 pm

….and what’s this interview with an acharya that you have to have now before you can proceed in the Scorpion Seal path? No doubt it’s to ascertain one’s
loyalty to SMR.
Edward on January 25th, 2010 9:10 pm

Hi Rita and Mr. Tischer,

Have you given any thought to the proposal put forth by Mr. Marrow above?

In some sense, finding a space where people can sit together and then advertising it with posters and so on could be one of the most powerful political acts we could engage. I’m not exaggerating when I say that. Can you see what I mean?

If SMR does not seem to be providing us the leadership we think we want, there’s nothing to stop us from taking steps to serve the vision of Shambhala that we want to see.

Well, there could be practical obstacles of course. Or psychologial ones. We could discuss that a bit.

* * * *

I have to admit, when I first found this website, this Radio Free Shambhala, I was absolutely blown away, completely impressed, by two distinct features of this site:

1) the openess and genuineness of much of the discourse, which was refreshing and very attractive, and

2) the speed at which conversations flew off-topic, almost like an Olympic shot-putter spinning around until his stone hurtles off into space.

Both of these were a surprise to me. The second is not “bad” exactly unless people want to finish a single discussion.

So, if we feel inspired by Shambhala vision and are not happy with SMR’s leadership, how do we join our inspiration with the actual physical realities around us? Hmm? Unless we ask this, it doesn’t seem like we’re ever going to join heaven and earth.

I would be happy to see further discussion of Mr. Marrow’s proposal. Do people think the proposal sucks? Do they see obstacles to their personal involvement with it?

Also, I would personally encourage emotional responses, if desired. Anything you don’t feel emotional about might not be worth discussing in the first place, possibly.
Edward on January 25th, 2010 9:35 pm

Ok, I’ll go.

I personally see a lot of practical obstacles with starting a new meditation group. My home would not really work, even initially. So finding a space or coordinating something might be a hassle.

I still have some unresolved feelings about my previous sangha, and the idea of helping to spearhead something new based on a different teacher… well, that brings stuff to the surface for me.

Also, while it’s fun to complain and philosophize online, to actually help start up a new group could be intimidating. My own feelings of inadequacy could be exposed. Perhaps part of me resents the idea of starting over completely from scratch. Perhaps I don’t like the idea of starting a new group, when there’s already a “Shambhala Buddhism” group in my town– I might feel like a bad guy. Like if you open a coffee shop across the street from an existing coffee shop, you might be afraid that your tires would be slashed.

But helping make the dharma available to others could be extremely rewarding. Probably the most rewarding thing.

By the way, has this kind of thing already been done by people? For instance Bill Karelis? I know he was teaching dharma in prisons and doing some training in Latin America and in Europe, and helping start new groups and so on.

What I’m talking about, just to be clear, is starting a second Shambhala group in my town– one that does not replace CTR’s teachings with something called “Shambhala Buddhism”.

I don’t have a problem with “Shambhala Buddhism”, it’s just not something that appeals to me personally. It only seems like a “problem” or an “enemy” when I presume that it keeps me from doing things I feel moved to do. But quite possibly that presumption is entirely wrong.

I guess the path is clear when one is ready… Mr. Marrow in his December 8th post above lays out a pretty good suggestion, I thought.

Comments are welcome and encouraged. And please, share your emotions if you feel moved.
rita ashworth on January 26th, 2010 10:11 am

Dear Edward

Yes, yes and yes – I am doing the group thing and the coffee thing …..so I have started – dont find SB a threat just at the present time in the development of societies worldwide a distraction…..of course too there is the question of access to CTR’s Shambhala teachings for non-Buddhists which has been gone into ad infinitum on this site – principally access to the werma sadhana which non-Buddhists cant now access.

Perhaps an arrangement could be made regarding people having access to the teachings that would be good -dont know if SI is up to this.

Edward, I thought I gave a fairly good explanation of where politics intersected spirituality but you have not gone into this in your last post – I believe it was you brought up the subject of ‘betterment’ re spirituality and my last post referred to this.

Yes whatever the dissenters I think will do in their various guises will be regarded as political and straying from the true path -you might even be taken to court if you inadvertently use one of their logos or quote in extension from some text that CTR gave -a very sad state of affairs.

However we are talking about enlightened society and the political dimension was planned into it from the very beginning by CTR – Mark Szp has for example quoted from political texts on this site. Yes again I must restate that to me an enlightened society is diverse and a true king would let that diversity happen in a profuse manner. Thats my take on what CTR wanted to happen, and my conscience also rests with that.

I also believe many in the present SI feel the same way but are giving the Sakyong the benefit of the doubt for some time to come, that I believe is a wrong way to proceed – people should be voicing their objections at least now and in my opinion clarifying what they as individuals are prepared to do about the propagation of CTRs teachings in the world.

As for inviting teachers to venues outside of SI -try it -some in Boulder and Halifax will come I assure you. You can even check out Rita Gross’s site on google (she even has her own website! and is a dharma-person for hire – very inventive – I really must recommend her for doing this -what a person to invite to your neck of the woods – at last American knowhow prevails!)

Well best for now Edward and over to you

Rita Ashworth
Edward on January 27th, 2010 1:12 pm

Rita writes:
I also believe many in the present SI feel the same way but are giving the Sakyong the benefit of the doubt for some time to come, that I believe is a wrong way to proceed – people should be voicing their objections at least

Yes, silence is consent, of course.

We cannot truly say that SMR is “doing things” of a questionable nature– or of a fantastic nature, whatever. We have to say that all of CTR’s students, or lets say all the rest of us, are accomplices. * Isn’t that true?

Quite possibly SMR feels he’s doing the best things possible. I’ve never heard of anybody suggesting to him otherwise, so I have no reason to believe that any other possibility has crossed his mind.

Rita, perhaps you would enjoy submitting a brief article to the editors of this website to further explore your ideas about politics in an enlightened society?

* I’d like to know if there are any lessons from the Regent’s time that apply here. Is there any chance that people are making the exact same mistakes now that were made then? Being afraid to speak up? Being “polite” and giving someone the benefit of the doubt? Being full of “compassion” for someone, in order to maintain our own comfort?

There is a saying that the definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over, but expecting a different result.

It’s interesting, there are parts of the world where you have a fault line in the earth, but very few earthquakes or tremors. Very little give and take, in other words. What happens in some of those places is that the tension builds and builds, and then finally it releases after a long delay, causing a great deal of destruction.

When we’re afraid to work with some situation on a regular basis, you know, with our bare hands, I think the karma builds up until it bounces back on us in a very nasty way.
rita ashworth on January 27th, 2010 2:21 pm

Dear Edward

Thank you for your further comment – it is good to have this debate with you.

My take on Shambhala – the creation of enlightened society is that there are many ways to it both by meditation and some times by the practice of the Arts in their most widest sense that’s why I am interested in politics and poetry –for these are areas of human discourse that encompass shambhalian ‘values’.

It seems to me that the present situation is fixated on one way of reaching shambhala –to me that is silly and foolish and is not the path a King of a coming enlightened society should manifest for his subjects. I think if we elect to be ‘processed’ in this way only that is also foolish and silly – the whole thing is becoming too defined and too narrow. We have to consider the many non-Buddhists in this world that are waiting for these teachings – I know this to be the case from my recent interaction with people of other faiths and none.

This world is not made up of Buddhists and never will be – SI is digging itself into a hole that is utterly and completely wrong for this world and this time. Rather we have to open our doors to the Other in the most indisputable fashion –that’s what Chogyam Trungpa wanted us to do and that is what I am doing with others at present. I would ask people to examine their own consciences about what is happening. To me the Shambhala party should be for everyone or no-one – if you want to be a force for good in this world that will have to be the case. The Sakyongs vision, my vision, your vision, SI’s vision can not work if it does not meld with people where they are at – and simply put they will never be Buddhist to a large degree. This world is mad, beautiful, engaging and dangerous –it can never be defined by the concepts of fixed paths, however many Lamas flit in and out of our society – we who are rooted in our own lives here in the West must create the basis for this enlightened society in our world.

Do I know what I am doing is totally correct – no not completely – I do have some inklings about how to go forward and those inklings are based from my own experiences of meditation, knowledge of people that I have gained over time and my connection to the writings of Chogyam Trungpa Rinpoche and my interaction with him in the past. It is enough to proceed on this basis – if the whole thing cocks up –let that be the case –it is better that way for me personally. Edward you mentioned in your last post ones own inadequacies about taking things forward – I have thought about that – it seems to me that inadequacy is the shimmering of fearlessness. I hope people who are feeling inadequate at the present time re their own choices for the construction of an enlightened society will really take stock of where they are at and join with others to create other visions for a coming enlightened society for this world.

Well over to you Edward

Best Rita Ashworth
John Tischer on January 27th, 2010 2:30 pm

The Regent situation was very different because his actions that led to dissent were not just questionable. It feels like no one has learned anything
because SI is stonewalling just the way people around the Regent did…
but they have the added disclaimer that SMR is the authority…as long as
his actions remain within the parameters of “dharma” , students will think twice about criticizing him. If he had performed an immoral act, such as the Regent, the discussion would be very different.
Marvin Mendelow on January 27th, 2010 6:31 pm

Why are practioners fighting over practices? The amount of mandalas is close to infinite. The amount of worlds is also pretty far out there. What are you expecting to accomplish by this form of dissent?
Michael Sullivan on January 27th, 2010 7:23 pm

Hi Marvin. Are you new here? I think the issue is brought from the realm of the absolute into 21st Century relative when a teaching stream – that of CTR – mixes with (non-profit) corporations, intellectual property laws, tax codes, leveraged real estate, and multi-shelled control structures that seem not so responsive to significant numbers of rank-and-file…

I get the feeling that people here want to be able to perpetuate the teachings of CTR as he taught them with access to the materials involved therein, unfettered by whatever direction his heirs choose to move the organization he founded. But that is just my take on it, other folks have their own, I’m sure.
Marvin Mendelow on January 27th, 2010 10:46 pm

Hi Michael, My guess is that I was probably one of the densest students of Rinpoche. I only believed what I experienced personally. So it was a long time to get even the slightest idea of what Rinpoche was getting to. I doubt I would ever accept any other guru, although most of the accomplished people that are around, students and teachers of all levels, would be a welcome enrichment.
.It seems the organization has lost the ability to teach authentic warriorship and tri-kaya Buddhism.
If this problem didn’t arise, then the challenge would not have come about.
Have the teachers that are representing the organization diming their own personal lights?
Are the people that surrounded Rinpoche not speaking out?
I don’t know if it is true that the complexities of the organizational approach automaticcally reflect the loss of authentic teachings.
Chris on January 28th, 2010 12:08 am

“Abbots and great teachers were more concerned with the construction of massive gold roofs on their temples and huge buddha statues as well as the improvement and outward expression of their temples than with the actual practice of their lineage of transmission.
They sat in meditation less and did business more. This was the turning point of Buddhism in Tibet. It began to lose its connection with the Dharma and started to change, slowly, most infuriatingly and dreadfully into spiritual materialism.”

CTR 1982

No one is speaking out anywhere, as far as I can see, except here.

Paypal donations websites on every lama’s page first.. when is it enough? When do we say enough is enough? After he died, the floodgates open for the same greedy spiritual materialism that he warned us about and I am sure he didn’t want to follow him here. But it did. Billions sent back to Nepal and India to preserve a 14c ceWhen the monies dry up, the few good lamas whose concern is just with lineage transmission and practice will be left standing. It will be good for the dharma , for new students and old. This is one way we can bring clarity and separate the wheat from the chaff. And it won’t even cost us anything.ntury lama/aristocratic lifestyle. Sheering the western sheep of their money.

What destroyed the dharma in Tibet, has simply been imported. This is not the dharma. We are not serfs and slaves that have to keep our eyes down and say nothing. We know this is not the dharma . CTR planted that seed in us. We can end it with our checkbooks shut, our feet walking.

Watch how fast it moves on to Taiwan and Malaysia.

This will be a quick ” awakening” for everyone.
Chris on January 28th, 2010 12:30 am

Mark:

Why is it impossible to correct or edit anything on the edit page? It is very frustrating. Oh well , I will try.

I would like to add that I think it is a tragedy that we say nothing, and carry on with this pretense of dharma, when our teacher came here, risking and giving his life, to plant the dharma in the West and it has turned into this kind of spiritual materialistic dharma marketplace .just a quick read of “shambhalatimes” is enough of a bellweather of how far removed it is from the Dharma. What claptrap PR journalism, “everything is perfect, everything is sooo wonderful, we are soooo special. YUKKKKKK!!!!! And no one says anything. I think it would make him very sad. I think he would get very very “black.”
Edward on January 28th, 2010 12:55 pm

Michael Sullivan writes:
…when a teaching stream – that of CTR – mixes with (non-profit) corporations, intellectual property laws, tax codes…

I appreciate Mr. Sullivan’s remarks. I’d just like to comment on one tiny piece that he said, which is that I don’t think the problem is using “corporations”, nor do I think the existence of tax codes are the problem.

There was a computer consultant named Gerry Weinberg who wrote a book a few decades back called “Secrets of Consulting”. He said whenever he got hired by a new company who told him about this technical problem they were suffering from, inevitably he found that underneath the “technical problem” was in fact a people problem. But the client always preferred to talk about the “technical problem” as a way to remain ignorant of the people problem, and of course, to keep the real problem from ever getting solved! (Gerry had a wry sense of humor.)

In other words, perhaps it’s not the tool that’s the problem. If I have a hammer, I can build a beautiful home with it, or I can smash my thumb with it, or I can attack someone with it. But are hammers bad?

Now, if someone uses layers and layers of corporate structures in a dharma setting to create smoke and mirrors, to deceive people, to hide responsibility, and to suck money and resources and property and access to dharma away from the students…. well, that seems like a recipe for either:

1) conflict / disagreement, or
2) some sort of extremely ignorant situation
Michael Sullivan on January 28th, 2010 7:05 pm

OK Edward, maybe tax codes is a little over the top, but the mixing of the spiritual with business-style organization and intellectual property laws, and the use of corporate structures (with no votes by “shareholders”!) is ALL about control. And with that control comes the power to change whatever you want, as you see fit, and to keep others from doing things the old way, by denying access to intellectual property.

In Tibet, if you got the teachings, you could practice them until you had your realization, and were free to pass them on to whoever you chose. Nobody sued the yogi with vast realization on top of the mountain, and nobody sued the mountebank with little realization who was in it for the offerings. All those situations self-liberated.
Michael Sullivan on January 28th, 2010 8:16 pm

PS I’m NOT calling anyone a yogi or anyone a mountebank, those were just examples!
Chris on January 29th, 2010 12:01 pm

If you think that most lamas , and their centers are not primarily here for the money, ask yourselves, while these centers are touting “diversity,” and fundraising for monasteries in Asia, and “preserving Tibetan culture”, and yet we never see ordinary Tibetans, with there devotion to the dharma and Buddhism and these lamas, at these American host country dharma centers?

New York for example, has a very large population of Tibetans working and struggling to keep their national and religious identity intact. How many come to these dharma centers, such as Shambhala, or the many other centers to hear the teachings? What must it be like for these ordinary Tibetans to see their lamas catering to their rich American non-Tibetan Buddhists merging pop psychology and feel-good dharma courses to keep the donations flowing and the non-Tibetan Western students students happy, with their checkbooks open? Why are we so critical about all other socio-political situations in our own country, and yet are so blinded when it comes to Tibetan Buddhism.

Why do we not notice the wide divide, between Tibetan aristocrat/lamas, and ordinary Tibetans that live here, struggling as dishwashers in New York, too tired and financially challenged to have access to these lamas teachings? I read of one Tibetan lady who had to go to a Chinese/Buddhist center because the fees were too prohibited at the Tibetan dharma centers in New York.

Why isn’t Shambhala International reaching out to ordinary Tibetans, and yet identifying with Tibetan culture ? Surely, if this was Shambhala on earth, ordinary Tibetans would be flocking to the centers? I don’t see any outreach to reach the Tibetan population in this country, which has exponentially increased? Why not?

We say we care so much about the Tibetan struggle and yet I, for one, have only until recently thought about this bizzare non-access to the dharma that ordinary Tibetans must experience here in America as Hollywood celebrities and rich Americans have access to their lineage lamas, but the ordinary Tibetan living in America does not? Is it that they never did? And this is just business as usual?

We need to start paying attention to what is happening here. Not just an abstract concern with Sri Lanka, or Bhutanese Napali refugees, or Tibetan nuns , but the ordinary Tibetans in our neighborhoods. We might really learn something real about Tibet and Tibetan culture .
Edward on January 29th, 2010 12:11 pm

Well, I always try to remind myself that “everything is a workable situation”.

And I always try to see how new situations, new tools, new technology, can be a benefit or a help as well as a potential obstacle.

To use an obvious example: I’m glad there’s a printing press, or I would almost certainly not have so many of CTR’s books. Likewise, the Internet provides many benefits. Some have suggested that without Internet discussions, if we spent time with one another in person, that we might all become close friends and any conflicts or misunderstandings would just evaporate, possibly. We’d be swimming in milk and honey. I’m not so sure. I think Internet discussions actually could have one or two advantages over live discussions.

As far as controlling access to the dharma, I think that happened in Tibet all over the place, as Chris pointed out, even without intellectual property laws. You could spend your whole life living INSIDE Tibet, laboring quite hard to feed monks your whole life long, from sun up to sun down, and it’s possible you would not be given any useful wisdom at all– if you were an animal herder rather than a monk. Depended on your caste, of course. You might be told that the monks would pray for you if you gave them your money. At least that’s the impression I got from reading Born In Tibet or one of those accounts. Corruption is an age-old vocation, I think.

We’re rather spoiled to have access to some of these teachings at all, perhaps.

I’ve actually heard that in Tibet, rather than suing people, the Buddhists just went ahead and assasinated each other sometimes to deal with things. I don’t know if that’s true, but I’ve heard it from several sources.

There’s a story from the Zen tradition of the Fifth Patriarch having a big, well-run Asian monastery situation. But when he chose his successor, he fled his own monastery because he knew the monks would not like his choice of dharma heir, and felt they might actually try to kill him out of jealousy, as punishment for his choice. If we take that story at face value, it makes it sound like Asian monastic situations don’t have a monopoly on “goodness”, to say the least.

So I’m not sure that low-tech situations or older Asian legal systems are the answer.

My old teacher embraced technology more passionately and skillfully than any of his students– for instance he was always pushing Internet possibilities to the limit of what they could do. We used fundraisers and multiple corporate structures and so on, and in our sangha there was never any feeling that those tools were obstacles particularly. Maybe we were wrong, I’m just sharing what the general attitude was.
Edward on January 29th, 2010 3:15 pm

Whether someone wipes ink onto a sheet of paper with a brush, or shuffles corporate charters, in either case the person is expressing his or her mind… intention… joining his inspiration with the earthy means available. Isn’t it true?

So if a teacher such as CTR were to set up creative corporate structures or organizations that aid the dharma, that would be an expression of his mind.

If a different teacher were to come along and set up many layers of corporate shells which confuse and disempower people, hide accountability, reduce access to dharma, and try to maximize control for the “central bureaucracy”, what would that be an expression of? Do such actions no longer express the artist? There seem to be huge amounts of fuzziness and haze surrounding these questions.

Do people believe corporate charters are inherently evil? Or does it depend on who is using them?

I propose that we have to see the artist in his artwork, and that one art form is not inherently inferior to another, depending on what the situation calls for.
Edward on January 29th, 2010 3:51 pm

If SMR wanted, he could get away with all sorts of nonsense. Because we’re so reluctant to disturb our comfort! And some of the checks and balances CTR setup before his death are now gone.

We feel traumatized, afraid of emotions and afraid of conflict, isn’t it true? In such a state we’re VERY easy to take advantage of, I’m sorry to say. “The whole reason I joined this spiritual group was to give me a refuge, a big lap to jump into, to make me feel better after dealing with my pain-in-the-ass job and pain-in-the-ass marriage. This spiritual group is one place where I can’t handle any disagreement.”

We’ve been traumatized by the regent situation, the economy, who knows what. We just want to be left alone, to feel that things are ok. We want something good to believe in.

The trauma people feel– and maybe the trauma still ahead of us in the months and years to come– reminds me of a movie scene:

I don’t have to tell you things
are bad. Everybody knows things
are bad. It’s a depression.
Everybody’s out of work or scared
of losing their job, the dollar
buys a nickel’s worth, banks are
going bust, shopkeepers keep a
gun under the counter, punks
are running wild in the streets,
and there’s nobody anywhere who
seems to know what to do, and
there’s no end to it. We know
the air’s unfit to breathe and
our food is unfit to eat, and
we sit and watch our tee-vees
while some local newscaster
tells us today we had fifteen
homicides and sixty-three
violent crimes, as if that’s
the way it’s supposed to be.
We all know things are bad.
Worse than bad. They’re crazy.
It’s like everything’s going
crazy. So we don’t go out any
more. We sit in the house, and
slowly the world we live in
gets smaller, and all we ask is
please, at least leave us alone
in our own living rooms. Let me
have my toaster and my tee-vee
and my hair-dryer and my steel-
belted radials, and I won’t say
anything, just leave us alone.
Well, I’m not going to leave you
alone. I want you to get mad.

I don’t want you to riot. I
don’t want you to protest. I
don’t want you to write your
congressmen. Because I wouldn’t
know what to tell you to write.
I don’t know what to do about the
depression and the inflation and
the defense budget and the Russians
and crime in the street. All
I know is first you got to get
mad. You’ve got to say: “I’m
mad as hell and I’m not going
to take this any more. I’m a
human being, goddammit. My life
has value.”

- Howard Beale, Network (1976)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WINDtlPXmmE

It’s interesting that the speaker’s primary recommendation is to acknowledge the reality of suffering and dissatisfaction, to begin to have value for oneself, and to be willing to feel strong emotions. On that basis, everything else might become workable, he suggests.
blinz on January 29th, 2010 6:37 pm

Hmmm…. Edward , it sounds like fin de siecle Vienna circa 1910.

And from what we have seen in the last 25 years, from first-hand experience, it won’t be the buddhists leading the vanguard of critical thinking and protesting repression and censorship, that’s for sure. As I have said before, buddhism has often been used to censor and has been the religion of some of the most tyrannical dictatorships.

“it just crept up on us. When we could have spoken out, we didn’t, and then it was too late.” German quote.
This is definitely the wrong time to allign oneself with a repressive, “harmony at all costs” group.

Radical Dzogchen, and radical dogen seem to be calling . . have to take a break now, checking out the anarchist buddhists sites I have just found, much more in line with Trungpa s teachings.
John Tischer on January 29th, 2010 6:49 pm

The West is where the dharma is flourishing now, so that’s why all the authentic teachers, as well as the charlatans, are paying attention to it. That makes sense. Sorting them out is another matter. That’s left to the individual, which is why this website is important: to provide information and points of view of students of VCTR, so that people can make a more informed decision about their relationship to S.I.. It would be good if S.I. would engage in this discussion, but equally important, and powerful, is the providing of differing p.o.v.’s.
rita ashworth on January 30th, 2010 9:30 am

Dear Edward

Thank you for your perspective on how you find SB – I hope you will keep the comments coming.

I am thinking of writing an article for rfs on Shambhala politics but first I will have to read the Fromm book -I really hope people can read it aswell round the globe. It seems from what I read of the encounter Trungpa had with it in India that it was a revolutionary book for him. Could possibly Richard Athure comment on the discussions he had with Rinpoche on the book? That would be really interesting.

Yes shambhala -yes it is here already-the fearlessness aspect -the manifesting of it physically in this world may have to come from peoples visions in a religious/shamanistic/secular sense also -there are many paths to yet discover I believe and further paths in the midst of ripening-its a conundrum and a blessing I think and also too its wide open whatever SI states to the contrary.

On a practical level I would say first recite more poetry and definately get into the Arts more – may be we the outsiders could also discover ‘conceptions’ of the Rigden King and Queen -there are infinite possibilities for many things to happen.

Safe to say though that in a revolutionary sense everything in everything field will have to change to accommodate Shambhala and indeed American Tantra that Rinpoche also talked about.

Well best from this side of the pond –

Best

Rita Ashworth
Chris on January 30th, 2010 12:33 pm

“The mercy of the West has been social revolution; the mercy of the East has been individual insight into the basic self/void. We need both. They are both contained in the traditional three aspects of the Dharma path: wisdom (prajna), meditation (dhyana), and morality (sila). Wisdom is intuitive knowledge of the mind of love and clarity that lies beneath one’s ego-driven anxieties and aggressions. Meditation is going into the mind to see this for yourself — over and over again, until it becomes the mind you live in. Morality is bringing it back out in the way you live, through personal example and responsible action, ultimately toward the true community (sangha) of “all beings.”
This last aspect means, for me, supporting any cultural and economic revolution that moves clearly toward a free, international, classless world. It means using such means as civil disobedience, outspoken criticism, ….”.from Gary Snyder’s “ Buddhist Anarchism”.

Anarchism literally means “no arch” or no hierarchy or authoritarian religion, government , state overriding the individual and that limits the basic goodness spontaneously present in the individual. Anarchists were talking about the “basic goodness” of human beings before we even heard of the word connected with the dharma
When an institution is proclaiming to be “expanding on the teachings of CTR, and using him to perpetuate a lie,( i.e the lie that this current situation is even remotely connected to his teachings), we must speak out against this horrible distortion every chance we get, in my opinion, or we are breaking samaya with him.

Interestingly, the anarchists of the early 20th century were beginning to have a glimpse of voidness themselves. They found that violent anarchists,caught up in violent struggles with the state, were so off the mark because they believed in the “world out there” as having an essence, which true anarchists did not. They were beginning to understand that there was no essence inside or outside, so there was nothing to push against violently, nothing to be afraid of. That humans were inherently good, if authoritarian hierarchies could be seen through and thrown off by simply reclaiming our birthright and saying NO to every form of repression of the human spirit.

We need to appreciate our own Western anarchist origins, (and buddhist anarchist origins such as the Tao, and zen and dogen and radical dzogchen and of course Buddha himself) .. It was no accident that East met West in the way when CTR’s crazy wisdom teachings came to America. What a far cry we are now from the Allen Ginsbergs and the Gary Snyders of Trungpa Rinpoche’s mandala.
Edward on January 30th, 2010 2:35 pm

Hi Chris,

Interesting comments about anarchism. I don’t normally like that word, but maybe there’s more to it for me to learn. There was one thing that concerned me:

Chris (Gary Snyder?) writes:
This last aspect means, for me, supporting any cultural and economic revolution that moves clearly toward a free, international, classless world.

Lots of people these days are without any class.

Ok, that was a joke. But seriously, what’s wrong with class (in the sense used in this quote) or with authority? I feel CTR was more of a warrior than me, and I think it’s fine to acknowledge that, to acknowledge the differences between people, to acknowledge that some are superior to others, and to allow people to be in different “classes”. I think in a proper society, someone like CTR would not be in the same “class” as everyone else.

I’ve heard stories that in the early says, CTR’s students sometimes called him “Rimp the Gimp” and might put a pillow on the floor for him to sleep on if he was a guest.

Perhaps that’s a fun way to treat an equal– I enjoy calling my friends nicknames sometimes, if I think they’re taking themselves too seriously. But if we admire someone as a teacher, I wonder if it can’t help to treat the person with a little extra respect? This is often done in martial arts classes for instance, to help create an atmosphere conducive to learning.

A classless society– one where no one is superior to anyone else– seems like it would be a society without class (i.e. without respect for each other). So I hope I never see a classless society. Of course, in some sense that’s already what we have.

. . . .

It seems like everyone is interested in politics these days. And our politics is always about trying to take resources away from our neighbor, it seems. “I’m non-violently and spiritually going to eliminate all class in my world, and pull everyone more fortunate than me down to my level, so I can get some of what they have.”

What would be interesting is a politics where we learn to appreciate what we already have rather than covet what our neighbor has. Compared to some people in the world– being born with a crack addiction, sleeping each night under an overpass, or lying in a hospital bed with no health or friends– we might be fantastically wealthy, but completely unaware of our wealth if we’re too focused on a feeling of poverty.

I wonder if crazy wisdom is a feeling of complete wealth, that everything in our experience is a resource.
Chris on January 30th, 2010 3:38 pm

I think you are focusing on a small part of the quote. What was more interesting to me was that the origination of anarchy and that it has to do with the basic goodness of individuals that if left to itself , will spontaneously manifest, and that turn of the century anarchists in the West before it became distorted (by these same institutions) understood that superimposed hierarchies whether they be religious institutions, state governments, etc serve to repress this basic goodness/intelligence of the individual, and that we don’t need it.
As for classlessness, in an enlightened society there was no difference between a streetsweeper’s inherent primordial goodness and wisdom and the king’s. In other words, that sense of “classlessness.”

This understanding of anarchy was very threatenting to hierarchies and kings and so they made it associated with something “monstrous”.

“Well established hierarchies are not easily uprooted;
Closely held beliefs are not easily released;
So ritual enthralls generation after generation.

Harmony does not care for harmony, and so is naturally attained;
But ritual is intent upon harmony, and so can not attain it.

Harmony neither acts nor reasons;
Love acts, but without reason;
Justice acts to serve reason;
But ritual acts to enforce reason.

When the Way is lost, there remains harmony;
When harmony is lost, there remains love;
When love is lost, there remains justice;
But when justice is lost, there remains ritual.

Ritual is the end of compassion and honesty,
The beginning of confusion;
Belief is a colourful hope or fear,
The beginning of folly.

LaoTze Tao de Jing
Chris on January 30th, 2010 4:03 pm

So, no surprise that, the more SI has tried to institute harmony, the less and less harmony there has been.
rita ashworth on February 1st, 2010 2:06 pm

Dear Edward

It is interesting that you are mentioning class at this stage in the discussion re Chris’s comment.

Coming from one of the most class-ridden societies in the world that is the UK – I can see many disadvantages to the class system. Mainly in the UK the ineffectuality of the system and the stasis in affairs that it promulgates. Class in the UK keeps people in their place and in their own little worlds – it leads to disharmony and not harmony in society.
At times too it threatens the stability of society particularly in the sixties when there were various upper-crust moves to threaten the Labour government of Harold Wilson by an army takeover which I think could still happen in the UK if we ever did get our act together in the sense of having a radical government.

Of course there are jobs to be done in society but they should not be done and awarded on the basis of class or private education ie many of the lawyers in the UK went to private schools for education.

No it seems to me that a way forward for an enlightened society in the realm of class would to be nip it in the bud –maybe this would call for a higher rate of tax for people who earn more so that people of whatever profession could have access to basic needs ie one of which could be meditation programmes –so that you did not have to bankroll a Buddhist or Shambhala organisation to kingdom come!
.
Trungpa I think also said he would have no problem working in a factory –yeh that’s true but if he got his hand stuck in machine he would have to have a way for legal redress against the firm –hence the construction of a society based on needs and not total overwhelming profit.

In addition Trungpa in the UK I think though he mixed with many upper-class people was indeed classless in that he also had friendships with people of ‘lower classes’. Alf Vial a close friend of Mike Hookham who was your basic working-class person told of how Rinpoche tore up his notes as ‘advice’ on giving a talk on the Buddhadharma. I also heard that Trungpa was the one who cleared the rats from Samye Ling in the early days ie poisoned them! So yes this was definitely a person who did what was required for the situation and was beyond class. As to having respect for him –I don’t think he much cared for that in a total Brit sense rather he wanted you to be yourself with him warts and proverbial all!

So class –interesting……..its mentioned in the Fromm book –only got third of the way through –getting to the part where he gives history of capitalism now. Read it people – Rinpoche really enjoyed the book –it should be required reading for debating about the way forward and the construction of an enlightened society.

Best
Rita Ashworth