What Gary is describing with its “”coming cataclysms” is more like fundamental Christianity, and its rapture , with the SMR students preparing themselves for the worst and using that old saw “without “ KOS the light of the world will go out”!

What arrogance this is.

What a bunch of crap you are being fed in the name of CTR .
You, my friends , are helping to dim the pristine light with your apolcalyptic adolescent heroism..

You wrote:

1. “Shambhala being “secular” means that it doesn’t exclude any worldly activity from its practice, unlike, say, monasticism.”

Nope. Shambhala being secular means it doesn’t belong to any particular religion, and is not a religious path. It’s a secular path. As Trungpa Rinpoche wrote in Shambhala: The Sacred Path of the Warrior (p. 27):

Over the past seven years, I have been presenting a series of “Shambhala teachings” that use the image of the Shambhala kingdom to represent the ideal of secular enlightenment, that is, the possibility of uplifting our personal existence and that of others without the help of any religious outlook.”

2. “SMR has been giving Vajrayogini and Chakrasamvara abhishekas all the way through to the past year.”

True, but the practice path that is currently being offered clearly leads to the Scorpion Seal Retreat, and puts Vajrayogini and Chakrasamvara on “the back burner”, making it inaccessible for quite a few years. The notion that Mahamudra can be bypassed is not a small detail here.

3. “But I think even more than this, the whole point (I’ve said this elsewhere in these long, long columns of argument) is to focus on the establishment of KOS. That’s the much bigger issue going on here, rather than this or that yidam or area of study.”

It is interesting to note the casual way you refer to “this or that yidam”, as if they’re interchangeable and relatively insignificant. Good luck, sir!

4. “That was always the bigger picture, and that was always the ultimate demand. We weren’t here just to do our personal practices and be tantric shravakas.”

Clearly, we’re into ‘my project is more important than your project’–a losing proposition if ever there was one. Shoot off this foot and the other will get bigger! You’re saying there’s something more demanding than Chakrasamvara? (Are you a Chakrasamvara practitioner?) Reminds me of the story about the pet alligator. I think it was in one of Trungpa Rinpoche’s Life of Naropa seminars. It’s very stylish to be walking around town with your pet alligator–people think you’re cool. And then one day, it eats you.

5. “I think the intensive focus on the Shambhala teachings leading into the Scorpion Seal is establishing the spiritual energy and vision for this as ground for KOS. Otherwise, in all seriousness, we risk giving up on the whole project–something that would happen with Trungpa Rinpoche’s original students themselves.”

So we’re playing the “mine is bigger than yours” game, are we? Throwing out the baby with the bath water.

And Trungpa Rinpoche’s original students are “giving up on the whole project”? My goodness! Sounds like some kind of spiritual slander.

Again, good luck, sir!

You raise some interesting points about KOS being established in this world.

I think the ‘truth’ of the whole thing is that no-one exactly knows how this is going to be done even the present Sakyong. I think the establishing of KOS will be somewhat more complex than the now ‘given’ way being run through by SI otherwise I would not have left the organisation if I had as much faith in it as you re the present curriculum.

There are too many questions both logically and intuitionally coming into place about the whole notion of KOS through the many arguments both on rfs and on other boards. There are reports beginning to surface on the Chronicle Project by Mr Neutral, for example, that other shambhala terma will be discovered. Now who is to ‘uncover/discover’ that –will that be only down to the present Sakyong? There has also been mention I believe in another report that CTR himself because of the situations happening in the states at the time did not receive more terma – I wonder if some-one could give a report on that?

There is also too the world beyond the SI environment of course when people come in contact with the shambhala teachings. Are we positing that no-one in the 6 billion people out there will not clue into the whole shambhala universe with the click of ones fingers –that could happen aswell because I think of the times that we are now in.

So to me the whole basis of the arguments on rfs are not that the older students are hanging onto to outdated forms that the times now longer require –no I think ‘we’ too are also concerned in cluing into the way KOS will be established on this planet. And as for me I am willing to take the risk of working on my intuition about the whole thing of establishing KOS in different ways than those now being stressed in SI. As Pema would say when she was quoting CTR ‘we can experiment’ with life as we know it to get to know ourselves and our place in this world. Certainly since I was 19 I have been engaged in long experiments with the teachings from the east but I am not wholly convinced that they have ‘the’ way to life in this world any more – I think we are all capable of manifesting KOS if we investigate our lives in a complete a way as possible.

So yes I dont think there is any train going now specifically to KOS,- I think if you believe that that would be strange. No I think KOS comes upon us when we least expect it and reveals its majesty in our most questioning moments. And the questioning to me also comes from our great traditions in the west of secularism, so for all the philosophers of that tradition I pay homage to them too.

Yes KOS will be brought about by us all in all our different, subtle ways. I think people may be will have to hang onto their hats in the next few years because yes I do think there are changes afoot. I just think we have to remain open to what will develop and I do believe some people too know that in SI aswell but for some reason the debate is not happening.

Yes I am engaged as much as any person in SI in exploring and connecting with the shambhala teachings in the realms of Art, politics, and the creation of a truly peaceful world. And no I will not be hedged in by any ‘definitive’ ways of connecting to KOS – I believe more teachings will flourish as time passes –so yes its a big open field out there now.

Well best from the UK.

Rita Ashworth

After trudging through these endless discussions, I’ve developed a desire to seem some resolution to this all, so I appreciate that Mark is offering one, without rancor. It is still the case that the various elements of the “Vajradhatu path” Mark has laid out can be–and actually still are being– studied and practiced within the community. SMR has been giving Vajrayogini and Chakrasamvara abhishekas all the way through to the past year.

But I don’t see it being adopted, frankly. Even a center like Boulder’s is at least a little taxed with keeping up with one curriculum, much less smaller centers with far fewer capable teachers. But I think even more than this, the whole point (I’ve said this elsewhere in these long, long columns of argument) is to focus on the establishment of KOS. That’s the much bigger issue going on here, rather than this or that yidam or area of study. How is KOS to be established? This is motivating all the change, however upsetting it may be to the older students.

By my observation, the older students were the ones who first committed to developing KOS. That was always the bigger picture, and that was always the ultimate demand. We weren’t here just to do our personal practices and be tantric shravakas. Something far greater was asked of us. How is that going to happen? I think the intensive focus on the Shambhala teachings leading into the Scorpion Seal is establishing the spiritual energy and vision for this as ground for KOS. Otherwise, in all seriousness, we risk giving up on the whole project–something that would happen with Trungpa Rinpoche’s original students themselves. That doesn’t seem right. That’s a greater wrong than changing his curriculum from the ’80′s.

I think the whole thing has been set in motion like a train on the tracks, and there’s nothing really that can stop it. This is what SMR was saddled with by CTR, and so he’s instigated it based on his vision and understanding. It is aiming to create an environment that will protect and encourage the teachings–everything that can survive the coming cataclysms of this age. Of course, as much as possible needs to be preserved, practiced, and handed down. But we must remember, based on Trungpa R’s own prophetic vision, that KOS exists to secure the dharma in the dark age. If we can establish it, buddhadharma and authentic spiritual traditions have a place to be. Without it, one of the most pristine lights shining in the world will go out.

I meant to say “artful” not “devious” in my comments on the Dorje Dradul

Too late for apology. You have already revealed your heart.

I wish to take issue with Don Ronaldo’s recipe for Christians. Undoubtedly his tastebuds have been compromised by consuming large amounts of alcoholic beverages at an early age. And, he is not particularly known for his Julia Child techniques in cuisine, when on occassion he has been seen eating chili out of a tin can.

This vile calumny on my gustatory acuity comes from someone suggesting a combination that could not be stomached by even the rudest starving Hottentot, let alone a perky lion.

And for the record, no one has seen me eat chili out of a tin – principally because I have never done so. The only tin meals I enjoy are c rations.

As to my credentials as an secret agent, you may look me up on wikipediea.

One must wonder at the intelligence, or lack thereof, of someone who uses being a spy as a cover. A failed spy that was beheaded in Bokhara at that.

It is not the usage of spy organizations to give messages. They are supposed to be inscrutable (the word here used in its ordinary sense of bluntly opaque).

If there were a real agent of some KOS spy agency then he would of course be inscrutable (but the word here is used in its Shambhala sense of brilliantly and unfathomably direct.)

I am hardly the most experienced meditator here, but in my experience, the loneliness IS the path. And sometimes, when I am able stop resisting my impulse to run and I just to lean or breathe into the loneliness, touch and taste it, it gives way to experiencing a profound connection to all of the universe. Granted, in the process I feel shattered into a million little pieces and sometimes I fight giving in to that experience, too. But sometimes I stop fighting and my longing and my broken heart transform into a love for which I do not have words.

I know you know that the cozy womb never really existed and I am not sure the loneliness ever goes away. Just reminding you that you don’t have to fight it.

Theresa