Thanks for the above information re CTR’s texts and study topics. I am looking forward to the future article on this.

It also may be a good idea in the meantime to point out the details given in your post in perhaps a heading called educational resources for groups because as time goes on people might want to consult such a reference topic.

Is the Root Text project being produced by SI or independently of SI – I have not heard much about it -what about copyright here and will this project be online? Hope to hear more about this project.

Great article by Damcho – I am thinking about it before I reply.

Best

Rita Ashworth

This topic – what are the essential practices, texts, and study topics for a Chögyam Trungpa sangha group – will be explored in an upcoming article here.

In a couple of years the Root Text Project will publish a 3-volume set of the topics covered by CTR in the Vajradhatu Seminaries (Hinayana, Mahayana, Vajrayana). This will be a deep resource for study and teaching.

- Mark

Cheers and good luck with your move,

Suzanne

In addition I had a thought after reading Ash’s post re the vipassana centre idea –why does some one not just interview the Esposets – surely than we would discover more about what CTR envisaged for the place. You know as I post stuff on rfs and ask questions I seem to be ‘discovering’ all these other ideas that CTR had for different ways of supporting the teachings and thats one reason why I am still posting on here. So yes some one give those previous co-ordinators a ring! Yes perhaps you need a group forming on what CTR actually said about the place to people. So may be SI would take no notice of this group but at least you would have an historical record of what was said.

I myself though am not sure about big centres now –with Ash’s emphasis on the local perhaps that should be emphasised more –perhaps indeed you would be more financially viable as an organisation in that manner of having medium sized centres in the area where you live –yes it’s a chicken and egg situation at present. But in some respects too now I dont think you could sell SMC now that the stupa is there so may be more needs to be discovered about what the Vidyadhara said about the place to everyone. Perhaps the emphasis could be more focussed on other more conventional religions using the place may be it could become an ecumenical centre –there are many in the great Christian traditions that are exploring the meditation concepts perhaps there needs to be more invitations to them to use SMC besides the new age groups. Not that I am totally
against iconoclasts from the new age movement but you have to be very careful about interacting with the whole thing. I like Matthew Fox, the ex-Catholic minister, he has elements of new age in his teachings but of course he is also rooted in discipline aswell from the Catholic church –I know that to be the case from all ex-Catholics I have known –some how I dont think these people can be as foolish with religious and indeed secular concepts as many others I have known.

Well I think that is all for now –best from a sunny UK!

Best

Rita Ashworth

Thanks for your reply on Spirit Rock – I suppose I mentioned Kornfield because he was the only person I could think of in connection to the vipassana centre idea for SMC that Ash brought up.

Interesting to hear your take on Spirit Rock –yes after I mentioned it on my post I did check out the website further and I saw too that they were also following some new age courses aswell.
And then I read Kornfields history of Theravada in the states which did mention western psychology also

So yes thats interesting a lot of the Buddhist main centres seem to be doing new age stuff more than they used to – perhaps its because people have more trouble cluing into the Buddhist teachings these days in the sense of understanding about dissatisfaction and impermanence. May be also its a question of how you put the essence of the Buddhist teachings over to people in a manner that captures their intelligence but doesn’t turn them off in this acquisitive age. I suppose that is question of skill in communication that some can do that like of course the Vidyadhara.

In relation to psychology generally I do have a respect for the profession in that they deal with people that most of us would run a mile from. But then again like any profession I dont think psychology can set itself as an arbiter of society totally which from my reading it has somewhat done in the present age. Foucault of course has written many books explaining that psychology and psychiatry has sometimes had a tendency to do this. Of course I am no academic just a general reader but I do know how to ask questions about things more now than I did in the past –so yes everyone pose more questions about everything if stuff is ruffling you the wrong way and dont take the Authorities line on everything. Chris yes also psychology is going to be involved more in dharma circles to a degree even with just the concept of discussing compassion that does seem to be happening (I have tended to have a more sociological viewpoint of society due to my background) so how would you keep the conversation going or indeed should there be more strict parameters to the discussion? So may be a re-evaluation is called for in relation to eastern religions and psychotherapy –perhaps you could have those conferences again that happened in Boulder between these two branches of disciplines.

So yes getting back to a modern rise of the New Age –yes it again seems to be coming more prevalent as in the sixties- maybe hints at some essential sociological change in society perhaps here I mean globalisation and a sense of insecurity and uncertainty that is present. Also here I suppose you could posit in regard to this the rise of the shambhala teachings which have that ‘ideal’ of creating a better society ahead – so yes one would have to be very tentative in going forward with the shambhala teachings because they could possibly turn into a panacea catch-all for the ills of society and not an exploration of oneself and ones interaction with others.

I think its a question myself with the shambhala teachings

And the dangers are obvious, people I meet, who have been through these Spirit Rock programs, are completely confused about the dharma, the think that Jungian therapy is equal and a partner with the dharma, they want to discuss archetypes ( I like Jung and archetypes, don’t get me wrong) when we are listening to tapes on Dream Yoga as part of the Four Yogas of Naropa. They go to therapists and self-help groups more often then they practice the dharma, they chase after this shaman, and the next self-help new age cure. There are a number of the here who also have a Tibetan Lama as their teacher and it is all the same to them. This lama has gone back to Gampopa and the four noble truths again, teaching the fundamentals. Even he must have noticed finally, that something was terribly amiss in all this. But these feel that they couldn’t function without this adjuncts to their practice. “Quigong is as important as Dzogchen“, I have had people tell me this to my face.

And Quigong, as you may notice, is as much a mainstay at SMC as Buddhist teachings. Soon Psychotherapy as the Path to Liberation will be a mainstain. Particularly if it is financially successful. So do I think the dharma is in danger of being diluted and disappearing under this NewAge/Psycho/Buddhism?. I think it is the most dangerous time of all for the Dharma;

As you probably know, Jack Kornfield was originally a Theravadin Buddhist, who together with Sharon Salzberg and Joseph Goldstein practiced as Theravadins. When they came back to the west after serious practice and study, they wanted to bring this lineage to the West in a more essential form and started the “Insight Meditation Center” in Barre, MA. Jack Kornfield went on to get his clinical doctorate in psychology and became desirous of bringing these two streams together in some way . Salzberg and Goldstein continued in the Vipassana tradition they had started in Barre, and Kornfield broke off and started Spirit Rock. A Western Buddhist Center, that has a so-called “democratic board” of senior meditation teachers, (the 21 members of the Teachers Council) most of them with psychology and therapist credentials. Partly this center was a reaction to the media exposing “Guru Abuse,” particularly sexually, so it was an attempt to eliminate the “Lama” , particularly the Tibetan Lama part of the equation, although they do invite maybe one Tibetan lama, and other visiting Theravadin lamas to teach there. When the Tibetan lama teachs, they can never teach alone, but always alongside the visiting lama, as though to keep him in check. But mostly, they are psychobuddhist therapists teaching courses. This is true of the visiting teachers list, as well. Some of the senior teachers, teach from the “Diamond Approach” a literal merging of psychology and buddhism.

Most of their programs are psychotherapeutically influenced but they still try and maintain an emphasis on vipassana retreats of various lengths. Recently Kornfield built a quite serious, solitary retreat center on the land.

At first blush this doesn’t seem so bad, but dig deeper and you see exactly what Namkai Norbu was warning us about 14 years ago.

Here’s where it has been pernicious in my view: New people, coming to the center for their meditation month-longs, have an almost 50-50 chance to be told that they first need psychotherapy before they can seriously practice, (Kornfield reports at one time that this is about 40% of the retreat ants for his two month retreats). This is a serious conflict, , because it is a form of “bait and switch”, people are coming into the center for one reason, and Kornfield and his psychotherapist/meditation instructors, puts on their “other hats” as a psychologists and make a diagnosis that this or that person needs psychotherapy” first, as though the Dharma was not enough for them. Now for some people, with serious mental illnesses, this was always true, but 40%? This means he is seeing ordinary neurosis as something very special in Westerners, and something that the Dharma is not quite enough for. Conveniently, he has a whole staff of therapists , since the majority of the senior teachers, and the visiting teachers are also therapists and have their own counseling practices. So there is a built-in referral system, also very ethically questionable and very cozy. ( I doubt the APA would approve this).

Hi –nice to hear from you again.

From what I have briefly read about Cohen his teachings seem to be a meld of Indian religion and new ageism. Also just checked on wiki that he was a founding member of the Integral Institute, I wonder if that is true? Hope people can check the wiki piece out –it is informative.

Chris, is there any one in the New Age movement that you think is worth listening to? Would welcome your point of view on that or is it all second-rate. I ask this merely because Tami Simon on Rays website has said somethings that are favourable to Eckhart Tolle.

As to the other new-agey programmes at RMSC I believe Mr Waltcher said on the Project that this is what his vision was for the place so yes that vision is still being followed as we can see.

Yes it must cost a fortune just to keep the place ticking over so I suppose they would be in to maximising their revenues to the nth degree. So yes just checked the programmes and its seems a sort of fifty-fifty split with shambhala stuff –so yes if you took the new age stuff away could it survive –interesting question to pose.

And yes now all the splits and the discussions about SI I am sure people are hedging their bets about getting involved with the org and consequently RMSC. And any way in the states from what I see on the internet there are many places you could go to do New Age stuff and not travel half a day to get there. So yes what now for RMSC –personally I liked Ash’s prog. and all the items on that re leadership training and organic farming etc but he said it would not work so thats that it seems!

Yes funding the acharyas I thought that might happen with the proliferation of foundations being formed. So may be the plan is to have the shastris do the education as volunteers and to get the Acharyas salaried may be you could do that with taking something from the dues(maybe also increase them) and doing investments. You know when I read stuff on the SI website I am getting so much information on coporate American business setups. Its a real education-thanks SI for that! I think I could probably become a fundraiser quite easily tomorrow!

No, I jest, whats the thread title? Shambhala and the samaya connection and the Mains article of course – you could fit that into the discussion of RMSC because if its to become a place concerned mostly with creating an enlightened society on its own terms aka the present SI set-up –there will be no room there to explore shambhala teachings as being open to all. So it would kind of a hybrid New Age/shambhala Buddhism iffy place –can you have competing overall visions of the place – would not the dralas be confused?!

Also just read about the more pragmatic aspect of having the place as a kind of vipassana type retreat centre. In this connection I was thinking of Jack Kornfields set-up which seems to be flourishing –what do people think of that place stateside. From what I read of it on the internet it seems to be doing quite well. Perhaps people want something that is more down to earth and pragmatic-may be thats why Tolle is doing so well. Yes may be pragmatism is the zeitgeist of the US at the moment!

So I dont know about RMSC but I am interested in discussing it this side of the pond to just get a ‘handle’ on where people are at with the meditative life in the US because invariably what happens in the states finds it way over here in some shape or form. So it might influence what people are doing round the globe now outside of SI.

Well best

Rita Ashworth