Continuity of Practice & Teaching Stream
April 21, 2010 by Andrew Safer 
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Article by Andrew Safer
Preserving the Continuity of the Vidyadhara’s Practice Path and Teaching Stream
The fact that two practice paths have developed within Shambhala International is well established. Between 1970 and his death in 1987, the Vidyadhara, Chögyam Trungpa Rinpoche, introduced both the Kagyü-Nyingma Buddhist path and the Shambhala path, with clear instructions on how to proceed. Between 1995 and the present, Sakyong Mipham Rinpoche has introduced the Shambhala Buddhist path, also with clear instructions on how to proceed. To the best of my knowledge, there is no single comprehensive document outlining these different practice paths, but much of the detail was captured in Mark Smith’s article.
There are also marked differences in the teachings that both teachers have presented. After combining the Shambhala and Buddhist paths, the Sakyong has been focusing on the development of peace, joy, contentment, the mahayana aspirations of bodhichitta and compassion, windhorse, the four dignities, and the path to the Scorpion Seal retreat. On the Buddhist side, the Vidyadhara was a crazy wisdom mahasiddha and inheritor of both the Kagyü and Nyingma lineages through his root guru, Jamgon Kongtrul of Sechen, Khenpo Gangshar, and His Holiness Dilgo Khyentse Rinpoche. He taught on themes including spiritual materialism, egolessness, buddhadharma without credentials, prajna and upaya, vajra pride, and relating with the raw and rugged nature of reality. He also introduced the Shambhala teachings to the West.
There are many students of the Vidyadhara who have practiced according to his instructions who are alive today. They are in a position to contribute to the perpetuation of his practice tradition and teaching stream in the roles of meditation instructor and teacher. I believe many feel it is their duty to do so.
In the last few months, Shambhala International announced support for the Vidyadhara’s practice path. It is noteworthy, however, that this support is only available for sangha members who are already on this path. Others have the single option of pursuing the Shambhala Buddhist path after completing what is now called Shambhala Vajrayana Seminary.
Since the Shambhala Vajrayana Path document was issued several years ago, sangha members have been directed to receive the Primordial Rigden Abhisheka after Seminary and to proceed with the practices of the Rigden Ngöndro and Werma Sadhana.
According to that document, the path continues with a Period of Service, Mahamudra Investigations, and then Kagyu Ngöndro, followed by Vajrayogini and Chakrasamvara.
I asked the Dorje Loppon Lodro Dorje for an update regarding the practice path and he indicated that as of now, Kagyü and Nyingma practices will be available to sangha members following the Scorpion Seal retreat. This path through the Scorpion Seal retreat can be expected to take 8 to 12 years.
A significant break in the continuity of the Vidyadhara’s practice path has therefore been built into the structure of Shambhala International.
During this time, sangha members who are qualified to teach the Vidyadhara’s practice path will have little opportunity to do so within Shambhala International. Some who are qualified to teach have already left the organization, some can be expected to leave under the current circumstances, and others will probably die during this period.
The image that comes to mind is that of a tree ripe with fruit. The question is: will the fruit be picked, or will it fall to the ground and rot?
Please consider these questions:
- Are you concerned that the practice path set out by the Vidyadhara Chögyam Trungpa Rinpoche may not survive the current generation?
- Do you believe that sangha members should have the option of choosing which practice path they want to follow after Seminary?
- Can a student of the Vidyadhara who is qualified and ready to teach his practice path and teaching stream fulfill his/her duty to do so within Shambhala International, as it is presently constituted?
- [April 23, additional question posed by Mark Smith] Is it appropriate that it is no longer possible for a student to enter into the particular Vajradhatu Path/Transmission which the Vidyadhara taught us while he was alive?
Dear Andrew
To query one I would say what most concerns me here is the original presentation of the Shambhala teachings as being open to all different religions and none. Many arguments have gone on on rfs about this regarding the form of the Rigden King etc etc, so I will not go into them here. I just wanted to say that fearlessness, basic goodness, drala are not purely Buddhist concepts but they apply to all human experience in this world, for me this is the nub of the argument why I can not be a Shambhala Buddhist because I can not leave people of other faiths and none without access to these teachings. Even more so perhaps than the Buddha dharma I believe these teachings should be promulgated to everyone without prejudice.
To query two –yes it is up to the individual what option they choose after seminary. Take for example the conception of the Anglican Union which has conservatives and evangelicals but somehow manages to combine the two aspects for hundreds of years now. For that combination of different apprehensions of the ‘Divine’ we have to thank the leadership of several Archbishops down the ages. So yes all paths should be open to people.
To query three obviously at the moment a student of the Vidyadhara can not fulfil teaching the vajrayana teachings to people in SI because of the emphasis on Shambhala Buddhism. How could this change –well I have suggested several times that separate colleges could be formed as is done within the Catholic Church and which this great church has lived with for countless eons. Why SI can not do the same is beyond me.
So in conclusion what matters to me most is the presentation of the shambhala teachings in their original form in the sense of being open to all people. In this respect I have noticed on this site that Suzanne Townsend(?) had a centre in the states that was purely Shambhalian –I would love to hear more about this centre and how it worked.
Lastly I am not writing this because I don’t think SB won’t lead you to ‘enlightenment’ whatever that might be! Rather I am arguing for a conception of society that is limitless in ‘entertaining’ the views and experiences of all people. I dont know how we will live in this world in the future if some sort of universal baseline about connection to basic goodness is not developed.
Best
Rita Ashworth
as a late adapter, i will continue to sit under the tree and consume any fruit available. i sincerely believe the Vidyadhara’s practice path will survive this generation and lifetime. some things are timeless~~
i hope so for my benefit and the benefit of all sentient beings. while it is hard to find old dogs available and willing to carry on the transmission and days too become numbered, i will continue to practice “buddhadharma without credentials” bathe in “crazy wisdom” and hope in the next life i get with the program earlier.~~~
Peace Richard
Andrew, thank you for this clear and concise summary of how a “significant break in the continuity of the Vidyadhara’s practice path has … been built into the structure of Shambhala International,” and for the questions you pose:
1. Are you concerned that the practice path set out by the Vidyadhara Chögyam Trungpa Rinpoche may not survive the current generation?
2. Do you believe that sangha members should have the option of choosing which practice path they want to follow after Seminary?
3. Can a student of the Vidyadhara who is qualified and ready to teach his practice path and teaching stream fulfill his/her duty to do so within Shambhala International, as it is presently constituted?
My answers are 1. yes, 2. yes, 3. I do not believe so. SI has become entirely too “Miphamized” and has lost the flavor of the Vidyadhara, IMHO.
1.Are you concerned that the practice path set out by the Vidyadhara Chögyam Trungpa Rinpoche may not survive the current generation?
Yes, I’m concerned. But not worried about it. It survives or it wasn’t good enough. Not good enough for us as his students. Or not good enough in the sense of also empowering the students enough to put it forth further.
My feeling is that it was and is indeed good enough.
So it will survive through the students that will not die too soon and also will not fall on the ground like apples and rot. But flourish in stead. How? entirely up to them, us, me and you, the Sakyong, Andrew Safer, Reggie Ray, myself, you name them.
All that criticism and searching and discussing seems endless en an energy drain. It makes sense up to a point. After that, one should decide how to proceed and do that wholeheartedley.
2.Do you believe that sangha members should have the option of choosing which practice path they want to follow after Seminary?
Yes and no. It’s not as free style as some people might like. There are options, but that’s indivudual. Nobody has ever really done the same. It is too personal. Even though it’s called the same practice like shamatha or sadhana or whatever.
3.Can a student of the Vidyadhara who is qualified and ready to teach his practice path and teaching stream fulfill his/her duty to do so within Shambhala International, as it is presently constituted?
Yes, if he or she is able to teach what he was taught, what result that had and why, no matter what the circumstances or context of teaching.
Otherwise, maybe better not to teach (yet). I think if you can do it there you can do it anywhere and vice versa. I mean, it can be during coffee breaks, isn’t it?
The Vidyadhara is no more. So how he taught is gone, and what he taught is changing rapidly. It matters not if it’s apropriate, that his path of practice is not taught anymore. Of course it isn’t. Not in that particular way. That dissoved with his passing. It matters what is feasable or real NOW for whoever has a clue about it. So what do you do? Apart from looking at others. Samaya is not made to worry about , it’s made to follow through in your way, my way. He Ho.
Students who came to him might not have come to the Sakyong now. Student who now come to the Sakyong might not have come to the Vidyadhara then. Simple in my view as an ordinary practioner and mediocre teacher or instructor. And yes, I’m in SI. With still no problem of having many teachers and thus many paths. I combine all these in my mind stream I guess and what comes out comes out.
What remains is:
The proclamation of truth is fearless. And that importan to me. I believe that goes mostly beyond personal preferences for teachers and their paths. And beyond words too in the end. More a matter of feeling.
re query 4 -just listened this afternoon to the talk on primordial confidence by the Vajra Regent on vrot.org -yes he was a great teacher despite flaws now recognise that -makes me wonder how the shambhala teachings would have gone on if he was still alive,
Re out of SI sphere may be start from year zero again re shambhala teachings and begin to start manifesting anew from these brilliant talks of the past. Re-evaluation like Ginsberg with Blake – teachers gone and not gone not really the problemo – whose top-whose bottom doesnt really matter…rather clear connection to reality will always win out and in these weird times the whole thing is an open field.
Best
Rita Ashworth
1) Are you concerned that the practice path set out by the Vidyadhara Chögyam Trungpa Rinpoche may not survive the current generation?
No. It is already obvious that those who have the combination of fortunate life circumstances, practice, study, and realization will teach on their own if they cannot find a place within Shambhala.
2) Do you believe that sangha members should have the option of choosing which practice path they want to follow after Seminary?
This question doesn’t make sense. From what I have seen, by the time they get to Seminary, students who are anything less than gung-ho for Shambhala Buddhism have already been edged out. I have seen this happen to several friends. Seminary is the point at which students must take the Sakyong as their Lama. The ones who do this will want to practice however he says they should do. The ones who have been edged out are a loss to the strength and diversity of the organization, but the organization does not know it needs the stremgth, and it does not want diversity of this sort.
3) Can a student of the Vidyadhara who is qualified and ready to teach his practice path and teaching stream fulfill his/her duty to do so within Shambhala International, as it is presently constituted?
No. People who fit your description are being denied the opportunity to teach at a number of centers that I know of.
[4. April 23, additional question posed by Mark Smith] Is it appropriate that it is no longer possible for a student to enter into the particular Vajradhatu Path/Transmission which the Vidyadhara taught us while he was alive?
Appropriate? I don’t know. You could ask if it’s right, and then I could say it’s not right. But I’m not sure that the assumption in this question is true. See the response to #1.
With apologies to Andrew and Mark, and to paraphrase the Buddha, I would say that these are questions that tend not to edification. The damage is done. What do you hope to accomplish by pretending there’s a conversation to be had with SI on this? What’s the point of this conversation other than to stew in our own juices?
This “support for the Vidyadhara’s teachings” is a cynical sop to the old dogs who won’t get with the new program and don’t want to leave. Better for some of us who aspire to the path of the yogi to step out and look elsewhere…..
“1) Are you concerned that the practice path set out by the Vidyadhara Chögyam Trungpa Rinpoche may not survive the current generation?
2) Do you believe that sangha members should have the option of choosing which practice path they want to follow after Seminary?
3) Can a student of the Vidyadhara who is qualified and ready to teach his practice path and teaching stream fulfill his/her duty to do so within Shambhala International, as it is presently constituted?”
My answers to the above questions are, 1) Yes, very concerned, 2) Yes, and 3) No
Although I find the Shambhala teachings vast and profound and personally helpful, my primary connection to the teachings of the Vidyadhara has always been to the Kagu lineage and practices of that teaching stream. It is a tragic loss that the Kagu practices are no longer available to newer students who haven’t done years of Werma practice.
Recently a prospective student contacted me who wanted to learn to meditate, and in our initial phone conversation told me that she had a particular connection to the Kagyu lineage. (When I met with her it turned out that her connection to the Kagyu teachings was only because she was a student of the Gurdjieff philosophy, and someone had told her that the Kagyu teachings were similar. After initial meditation instruction and one meeting with our group, she decided to focus on Gurdjieff). However, before I met with her, I was in a quandary as to what to tell her. Should I tell her that she could practice within the Shambhala mandala and, after years of preparation attend seminary, and then after eight to twelve more years of Rigden ngondro and Werma practice, request the Kagyu ngondro leading to the Kagyu sadhana practices? Or should I point her to KTD or to students of Lama Norla who meet in this area? Although there turned out to be a non-issue in this case, I can foresee a situation where this would be a real quandary.
Students do not have a choice as to what path to take following seminary, because my understanding is that Rigden ngondro is the only option, and no one other than the Sakyong is qualified to give the necessary transmissions and abhishekas for the Kagyu practices. Those of us who are students of the Vidyadhara do have an obligation to propagate his teachings, but, in the absence of the availability of the necessary abhishekas can go only so far.
So new Vajrayana students no longer have the option of following the Kagyu path immediately after seminary, and the Sopa Choling retreat is in danger of dying out. Unless something changes, it seems very unlikely that the Vidyadhara’s unique and powerful presentation of the Kagyu teachings and practices will survive into the next generation of practitioners. It’s a shame.
You’re right Dan, this dialogue won’t change anything, and it probably is time to look elsewhere, although it breaks my heart.
Well, I think alot/more can be done in terms of just ‘transmitting’ sitting practice and the basic Hinayana-Mahayana teachings. The Vajrayana functions around a living guru only, especially in the Kagyu tradition. So let the official gurus deal with the Vajrayana level and meanwhile there is no end of dharma activity that can flourish.
And also, meanwhile, on the secret level, it is all being transmitted anyway, all the time.
Hello
Re: Dan’s comments. I appreciated the realism.
The writing was on the wall beginning in the early 90′s. The then Sawang was always intent on doing his own thing, I think at any cost. But this has spiralled out of control to the point that I wonder about the sanity of the situation. Could anyone presume to “improve” on the mandala created by the “best teacher since Marpa”?
My question is why all of this, what I perceive to be, passivity? Maybe we need to start at the grass roots again, sort of sitting on the floor of the living room. Or, maybe it needs to be a formalized break. I don’t want to divide the sangha but the reality is here. We have to face it. Considering the lifespan of the thoroughly trained senior students of the Vidyadhara, sooner rather than later would be better. Those students and countless younger ones longing to manifest in the world with a wealth of material to draw from, could actually form a new organization. And I’m guessing that many, many practitioners would love to be a part of this.
It seems like a terribly sad waste of a lot of amazing human beings who have dedicated their lives to this path.
It’s painful no matter what but let’s have the courage to face the reality. Let’s not be a disposable sangha.
“Do not go gently into that good night….”
Greetings:
There are a number of conversation circles going along now with various perspectives about how to continue the Kagyu Vajradhatu teaching stream of Trungpa Rinpoche. The perspective that I am finding most useful is that we have to be willing to “just do it” but perhaps in a more gradual and modest way than some big sweep our impatient minds might hope for.
Along these lines, something genuine can be accomplished in each of us just finding our own inspiration and communicating this to some people we feel connected to. From this point, we can have multiple Trungpa Rinpoche sitting and dharma study groups that might meet in a living room, yoga studio or wherever. These potential groups can each develop a good quality and provide a sense of sanghaship that we might feel is lacking now.
My mother has a framed neddlepoint slogan in her home that may be from the Pennsylvannia Dutch. I find this slogan helpful to recall, it goes, “Make haste slowly and ye shall soon arrive.”
Best Wishes, Charles
Hello Charles
I agree with you with respect to this kind of grassroots approach and I am engaged in some of that here in Indiana. But, and there always is one, at some point these people are going to or are waiting to go further – with nowhere to go. That’s where I believe the responsibility comes in to start thinking in terms of alternative programming. In order for the lineage of teachings to continue according to how they were presented by the Vidyadhara, people have to be empowered. So perhaps it is one program at a time, but there has to be a concerted effort to manifest the teachings in a container that, as I said before, empowers people.
Dear Marguerite
Re doing ‘further’ stuff together I would be into that. I am just reading a book called Tribes by Seth Godin which details just this aspect. He relates to getting together over the web because he is a marketing person but his business know-how could be transferred to the people who have left or are contemplating leaving SI. I am doing stuff with people in Manchester but I dont know what is happening round the world perhaps people could post and tell me what they are doing. Re the grassroots we are all individuals and we want to do what we want to do but there could be an informal sharing of knowledge and may be an actual meeting up in the future at an appropriate place so that we could may be at least share perspectives on stuff.
I did have the thought of compiling a database on shared interests but perhaps that is too structured at the moment but for myself I think I would need to relate to to people in the states and Canada more because mainly in Europe there is less division than in US/Canada So maybe another thread to discuss how we could go forward maybe not as group thingie but a shared interest thingie. -definately dont want to be coralled into doing things in the one way as SI.
best
Rita Ashworth
Good morning Rita
I think we might have been at Seminary together. Re: compling a database. I don’t think that is too structured. That could be helpful in planning for the future.
I am interested to know more of your impression regarding how Europe is relating to the current situation. I notice that a few Europeans have weighed in periodically. I also know that there are a lot of people watching this website.
Best
Marguerite
Dear Marguerite
Hello – I went to seminary in 1986 –the Never Forget the Hinayana one.
Re Europe – I think people are more miffed in Halifax and Boulder about the changes–this is because most of the older students live in those places.
So my feeling, intuitions are that people are waiting to see what happens –or doesn’t happen……the doesn’t happening concerns me because I think it will lead to drifting off of people…..people that might have wanted to get involved with Shambhala but wont now because of the Buddhism thingie…..what can one say? I even think people who are into the whole SB thing are sort of worried too because there are so many questions surrounding it– there are so many ways that your ordinary bod in the street can be put off by the whole thing particularly the guru principle aspect – personally I would regard the SB thrust as a public relations no-go. For example compare it with some of the stuff that Genpo Merzel Roshi(?) is doing which is much more geared to westerners, and also some new age stuff that is floating around which is also attracting more people like mindfulness meditation. I am sure too from your side of the pond you could supply other therapies/disciplines.
I dont know Chris who posts on here might be right when she quotes DKR when he states that westerners are getting to satiation point with strictly Tibetan format of path. Myself was into doing the whole path the Tibetan way to get a handle on my own mind but I thought eventually the Art, politics would adapt to west in fact CTR did talk of American Tantra in his books.
I am not totally sure about Ray but he is interesting, at the moment may be his teaching is too complex for the general populace thats why I was hoping at some point he would start teaching about Shambhala –may be he will do this in the near future, – I hope so.
Aka a database I dont know how you would do it for sure but it is an idea floating in my mind – I dont know would be great if Mark Szp. could advise-he must have loads of people on his email lists of the no-goers with SI-maybe people want to share stuff in a concrete way. Me I am more into the original concept of Shambhala for everyone but I dont think its ‘old’ concept of Shambhala as some in SB might be trying to term it –perhaps we will have to revamp it and call it something different may be New Shambhala!(supply your own adjective here). I think it would float…and also we might have to get other Lamas involved with it. As I said before I dont think the shambhala teachings came out of a vacuum of historical nothingness when CTR connected heaven and earth –so may be the Lamas could help out……plus also I refuse to believe that the Sakyong is going to be the only one receiving terma about these teachings…..I think Westerners will
continued
definitely be receiving terma too……thats my hunch.
Well best from this side of the pond.
Rita Ashworth
When the students are ready, the teacher will appear. Clearly one issue with setting up local study groups involves the ‘what if they want to go on to vajrayana’? However, that path, in our tradition, depends upon a guru-student relationship which seemingly we are not qualified to have, at least formally. I suspect also that most of us would not feel ready, willing or able to do such a thing. And of course here lies the issue of lineage, in stark practical terms. Again: when the students are ready, the teacher – or teachers – will appear.
But that will probably sort itself out. My impression – admittedly from afar – is that if more of CTR’s students felt reconnected to their roots and sangha-ship in the way Charles is discussing it above, that there would be a general sense of relief and forward progress, of good heartedness, throughout the entire mandala that will change things for the better in many outer, inner and secret ways. So again: that will probably sort itself out.
Also, given the intense, arcane nature of formal vajrayana study and practice, most ordinary folks who might develop a very deep relationship to practice and study but who remain grounded in their particular, local situations and family networks, may very well not be all that suited to it and in fact an authentic, grounded local sangha with regular practice and dharma companionship might be far more fruitional than is generally perceived. Or put another way: the basic pre-vajrayana path has tremendous depth and scope as it is, perhaps especially in a more or less autonomous local community context.
Personally I think it would be good if at some point students in such local sanghas could study the Shambhala terma and be taught stroke practice all at the local level without the need for federal/central programming or even formal 1-V levels per se. But that is just one person’s opinion and no doubt far too controversial.
I am sure I am not the only one who has noticed when teaching ST in small groups that those groups have very strong character and presence as such; but then when they want to go further, they end up having to travel large distances after which some of them are empowered to do X, and some Y, but rarely are the local leaders allowed to bring their own people along meaning that progress on the path that way depends upon setting up programs and importing teachers from afar to teach them. That to me is a key flaw in our operating vision, so to speak, or one of the choke points that needs to loosened up. And this is similar, if not ultimately the same, as the vajrayana issue above. It all comes down to people on local, and thus individual, levels feeling capable and empowered to practice and teach basic BuddhaDharma and ShambhalaDharma in their own local situation. Until this dynamic is resolved, the dharma cannot spread.
In short, it’s a big little issue.
Fantasy: what if there were lots of local sanghas all over the place to which their people could go to the existing practice centres to do things like dathuns, or the seminaries, but in all cases during which those interested would be trained to feel confident in teaching/leading in their own local sanghas without any pressure for them to necessarily sign up into a much larger, international organisation. In other words, the view and thrust, as it were, would be to continue working with the local sangha situation which is where most of the spiritual and community work happens, including growth in terms of both numbers and maturity in practice and study. Something like that. Sort of building the larger community one living deleg at a time, so even within a small town there might be 2-3 such delegs/sanghas versus only just one. NYC might have many along with one larger one for large gatherings. Little twist there.
Andrew,
I guess I either have a different copy of the Shambhala Vajrayana Path document or have understood it differently than the way you describe it. In the version Carolyn Mandelker recently distributed, a student is asked to do the Rigden Ngondro, then Werma for a year, then the Kagyu Ngondro, then Vajrayogini for two years, and then there are multiple options. Students are encouraged to do three mahamudra retreats during the five or six years (or longer) that it would take to complete the practices through Vajrayogini. Beyond all that, the document makes clear that a student is expected to complete several years of Nyingma practice BEFORE entering the Scorpion Seal retreat — that the training in mahamudra and trekcho and thogyal are considered essential to being able to complete the retreat. This is admittedly different than the path the Vidyadhara introduced during his life, but it really doesn’t seem as though the Kagyu and Nyingma practices are being given short shrift.
The Sakyong simply seems to be following the advice his father gave at the first Kalapa Assembly, when he said, “Ladies and gentlemen, the Shambhala Vision actually purifies Buddhist practice. That is why we say Shambhala Vision is the protector of the faith, the protector of Buddhist discipline. In this way we can bring about real Buddhist discipline so that you have not just clutched yourself into your practices and religiosity, but you have given in altogether. That’s why we use the term “secular”, which is not exactly effective and sometimes confusing. Nevertheless it is an attempt to say that we could actually give in the whole thing — or give out the whole thing.” (1978 Kalapa Assembly, talk 2) And from earlier in the same talk, “Actually, saying that you are a tantrika doesn’t mean very much if you don’t understand Great Eastern Sun vision at all. They go together completely. And fear comes from that because after you have done all that surrendering, practiced prostrations and everything up to the level of guru yoga, done your devotional trip and invited adhisthana and all the rest of it, then you begin to realize that your training’s not quite complete without the Shambhala principles.”
I don’t know that anything I can say or quote will be helpful — I always feel very raw and unskilful when I respond to things on this site — but having recently gone over the Shambhala Vajrayana Path document I felt inspired to share my understanding of what it says, along with the couple of quotes from Lord Mukpo.
Of course things may have changed — Lodro would be in a better position than I am to know about that — but the published document is quite clear that engaging with the Kagyu and Nyingma practices is a prerequisite to the SS retreat.
All the best,
Mark
Having been away for two weeks at the Chakrasamvara Amending and Four Karmas fire pujas at Dorje Denma Ling, I’d like to address some of the points that were raised above.
Frans wrote:
“The Vidyadhara is no more. So how he taught is gone, and what he taught is changing rapidly. It matters not if it’s apropriate, that his path of practice is not taught anymore. Of course it isn’t. Not in that particular way. That dissoved with his passing. It matters what is feasable or real NOW for whoever has a clue about it.”
While I agree with a lot of what Frans wrote in his comment–It’s up to us–I do not agree with this point. What the Vidyadhara taught doesn’t get staledated. It’s as relevant today as it was then, and will be for many years to come. Yes, it matters a great deal that his teachings survive over generations, and, to a large extent, that depends on how well his students manifest and pass on what we’ve learned.
Phyllis wrote:
“Recently a prospective student contacted me who wanted to learn to meditate, and in our initial phone conversation told me that she had a particular connection to the Kagyu lineage.” She went on to say that she had reservations about referring this person to our sangha because of its lack of Kagyu focus. This is an important point. How we can best serve students like this remains an open question.
Marguerite wrote:
“Considering the lifespan of the thoroughly trained senior students of the Vidyadhara, sooner rather than later would be better. Those students and countless younger ones longing to manifest in the world with a wealth of material to draw from, could actually form a new organization.”
Before moving to this option, I would like someone in a position of authority to publicly say that, in fact, the mandate of Shambhala International no longer includes preserving and propagating the Vidyadhara’s practice path and teaching stream.
Mark Hazell indicated that his understanding of the Shambhala Vajrayana Path document is different from mine. I was referring to the version that is posted in the members’ section of the Shambhala International web site, which, I believe, is five years old. I would also like to point out that things change, and that Mark might want to check with the Loppon for an update.
Hello Andrew
I don’t think we need wait for a person “in a position of authority” to publicly declare anything. Actions are speaking louder than words and the situation has degenerated partly because practitioners and in particular vajrayana practitioners have forgotten about their own empowerment, “You can do it” and “the big NO”.
When the core teaching of the Vidydhara began to be undermined, ie changing the technique, that, for me, was the ultimate violation. When people began to be told they didn’t need to move to Nova Scotia anymore, remember Kalapa Assembly? That was another core violation.
I repeat, there are many, many people who are capable to manifest these teachings and I believe that we have a duty to make that happen so that all of these people, who have nowhere to go, have somewhere to go.
It sounds inspired, but as far as I understand, without a vajra master I’m not sure there is a vajrayana path. I know a number of people whose practice has fallen off because they don’t know what to do next, and I know a few vajrayana students who have gone so maverick whatever it is they think they are doing, I can’t imagine it is any longer what it was supposed to be.
But there’s no one around pulling the reins back in. It has a quality of being a free for all, sometimes you get lucky, sometimes not, depends on your karma? and I don’t think the vajrayana path can be responsibly approached or managed, so-to-speak, that way at all.
I met a teacher from the Aro lineage and a few Shambhaloids who attended told how they were having difficulties. In a gentle but admonishing tone he said that’s not the way it’s supposed to be. It is not the tradition that students are given these kinds of practices, and then sent off on their own without any further guidance or need to keep in contact with a vajra master. (He mentioned they limit the number of students any teacher in their sangha can personally take on due to this necessity and limitation.)
It’s really a sorry thing, I can’t imagine what was being considered when things developed to this point, and I’m not sure that it will be solved by simply ‘getting together’ as nice as that will be. For mahayana practices and local situations like Ash referred to, that may be fine and good and all that’s needed. But for vajrayana there has to be either an individual or some kind of core group that is capable of not only transmission (which automatically implies lineage), but also reigning in or taming ego and handling the craziness that will arise when delving into such powerful and esoteric practices. The teacher is in a certain way as responsible as the student for working with that. I think it would be irresponsible to allow entrance into that level of practice without that level of support. I don’t think it’s something one can do experimentally, not on the level of realization.
If the students are ready a teacher will come?
Perhaps, but I doubt it’s automatic. And I can imagine a number of obstacles. Would not a situation that is truly capable of introducing people to Trungpa Rinpoche’s vajrayana teachings, and then providing the guidance necessary in the form of an experienced vajrayana master, need to be sanctioned by SMR for it to be considered a part of Shambhala? And if not sanctioned, would qualified teachers come? Should they?
In any case, it looks like what is now being suggested as support for this path, is probably more lip service than anything, unless that kind of support is from beginning to end and includes a qualified vajra master who holds that lineage. It certainly isn’t just about scheduling enough shrine room time. That would be just silly.
Is this like Tibet before Padmasambhava conquered such obstacles? Wouldn’t that be ironic?
Dear James
You have raised many questions about the way that the vajrayana teachings should be promulgated according to Trungpa’s original stream but no immediate solutions.
There is lip service being paid to the transmission of the vajrayana teachings by SI thats true and also a certain schizoid quality to their interaction with them, for example on the Times they have just announced a talk by the Karmapa but why would people in Shambhala really want to listen to him anyhow because SI teachings are so unique as they claim so thats beyond me.
I agree may be we have to have more input on the whole transmission of the Kagyu path from vajrayana masters, I was thinking that myself to a degree –if SI authorised some one to do that, I think I could work with that because I simply can not work with SI on anything at the moment because the whole thing has gone to me nutso.
There is no real kagyu vajrayana teachings taking place in the organisation, if you look at London Shambhala Centre their teachings are all geared to the Rigden Ngondro –so go zoop one may so –an invented word!
As to the mavericks some are working with teachers from the Kagyu lineage and some are not I believe. Ray has mentioned on his broadcasts that some teachers have made some favourable comments about him but he is not mentioning their names. Ray has a good container for the vajrayana teachings perhaps other mavericks will develop better containers as they go on that could happen, so maybe its a question of time and getting the buildings together. On this tack I was hoping that people in Halifax and Boulder would make more of a move and begin to somewhat step out of SI – I can tell you people around the world are looking for those moves from these major centres. I just dont know what is holding people back in this regard that to me this is also a loss of devotion to the teachings.
So yes even if you are not into the original stream of CTR’s vajrayana teachings and the places that arise would be Shambhala centres in the original context – I still think you would have to have rooms within those buildings for the vajrayana teachings to happen, that is a feasible way of proceeding I think – and one way I am thinking about the original container principle.
As to Rinpoches to relate to of course there is Trangu, Traleg and maybe of course the young HHDKR – I definitely could relate to him as I took refuge with him way back.
So yes James you are also seem to be contemplating alternatives –whats happening on the grapevine – and also has our conversation stopped with the veritable Ash!?
Still looking forward to more posts. Damcho will be writing something soon –so I am looking forward to that.
Best
Rita Ashworth
Dear James
Could you unpack the reference to Guru Rinpoche a bit more.
I know from reading about him myself that he did indeed pacify obstacles and discover and ‘plant’ terma –whether in peoples minds or nature. But I do not know how you are relating this to the current situation –are you saying that something will arise naturally or that something will be discovered particularly in the west besides the teachings being given by SI –myself I could relate to that –so is that what you are referencing…..also is this a question of time or a question of one may say disillusionment and a turning to face ourselves in the west. Hence the question how is that momentum going to materialise here.
Think yes SI thinks itself somewhat the inheritor of Guru Rinpoches teachings –maybe therefore their unique claims but myself I dont think they can claim this because jesus begorra what is out there?!
Thought I would add the extra note because you got me thinking about GR.
Best
Rita Ashworth
I am not a vajra master, so don’t expect definitive solutions from me, but solutions arise from examination of obstacles, and there are some very pragmatic ones that need to be addressed as much as anything.
Currently the family owns all rights to Trungpa Rinpoche’s sadhana texts, all Shambhala materials, extensive transcripts, talks, videos etc.. Someone suggested that this is not a problem, that if one needs access to texts, others in similar situations will share them in spite of restrictions, however, this control has been further consolidated with the formation of a ‘family lineage’ or Ladrang. Who would enter vajrayana under a cloud of possible legal sanctions? So access is not being made looser.
In any case, there isn’t a way around the difficulties anyone will have in entering these practices without a vajra master. It’s my understanding that the best one can hope for if one engages in vajrayana practices without a master, is that it will be useless. I’ve seen things that make it look risky and detrimental as well.
I agree with Ash that local communities based on contemplative shamatha/vipasyana could be very inspiring. That doesn’t require the kind of relationship and commitment vajrayana clearly does, (from both sides). But this thread is about carrying on Trungpa Rinpoche’s legacy, and that really must include his vajrayana and ati teachings, as that was always present in whatever he presented, and is precisely what seems to be given short shrift in the current regime. Catch 22.
The only real solution I can imagine is if Trungpa Rinpoche’s vajrayana Buddhist path, including the hinayana mahayana approach, were fully sanctioned and supported by Shambhala Int., separate from the Shambhala path, including the empowering of a qualified person or people to lead it and bring others up to that kind of level, from beginning to… wherever. I don’t think there’s any way around that. I suppose that would mean someone like for example perhaps the Dorje Loppon (any other suggestions?) would be empowered in that way to lead people on that path.
I think I have to clarify what I meant by maverick. I did not mean to implicate anyone who teaches other than Shambhala mainstream or who has students, like Reggie Ray. I have no issue with Reggie’s approach and it may be that is the way forward; students who ‘get it’ and can bring people to higher levels of realization seems like a no brainer. (Though one has to wonder what’s up if SMR talks to people in the ways Ellen Mains describes, admonishing people for not having as many students as he, while disallowing anyone to teach at levels that would allow them to gather students.??)
What I meant by mavericks though, are individuals who have abberent ideas and approaches to vajrayana, who have no sane guidance, and due to their confusion or inability to discriminate ego’s projections from genuine teachings, end up causing a lot of suffering for themselves and those around them.
Rita,
My remark wasn’t about Padmasambhava, but rather Tibet prior to his overcoming obstacles to dharma practice there. It was a throw off remark, I’m no historian, hardly worth much consideration. Anyone who wants to correct anything can feel free, but…
It referred to what I heard about those times, that people who wanted to practice vajrayana had to go underground and be secretive, because at one point it was actually illegal to practice Buddhist vajrayana. Padmasambhava conquered those obstacles, in some cases by military action, in order to make the way free for dharma and in particular vajrayana in Tibet. As I understand it.
If members of Shambhala who want to fully engage in Trungpa Rinpoche’s Kagyu/Nyingma teachings and practices, need to find ways to do that which are not officially sanctioned, and which under certain circumstances could actually be open to legal actions due to copyright laws, if that’s really how it is, then the idea teasingly suggests itself that perhaps we need someone like Padmasambhava within Shambhala Int. itself.
Trungpa Rinpoche founded Vajradhatu the organization which is the perhaps forgotten bedrock of Shambhala International, and he is the tertön who brought us the Shambhala terma. Ironically, it was also said by some during Trungpa Rinpoche’s lifetime that he was an emanation of Padmasambhava, as evidenced by his ability to conquer obstacles to dharma in the West.
To some extent it seems to be the case there’s a need to overcome obstacles to practicing what Trungpa Rinpoche himself taught within Shambhala International. Hence the idea that we could use some sort of small scale Padmasambhava action if you will, in order to once again make the path and teachings presented by the founder of the organization once again as accessible as they should be within the organization he founded, without making followers of that particular dharma feel they have to be secretive or low key in some way because that’s not what Shambhala ‘does’ anymore?
It’s all rather farcical, and one could have a good laugh, but isn’t that kind of how it is?
I like the spirit of what Ash wrote above, about senior students being empowered to work with their local sanghas, and getting away somewhat from the bureaucratic and centralized notion that all the “goodies” are in Halifax, Boulder, and other major centres. I think for this approach to work we need more senior students moving out from the larger centres. This would not only benefit the local sanghas but would inspire senior students to step up and pass on what they have learned.
I also agree with what James said in his 7:02 am post re: the necessity to empower certain senior students to teach and guide sangha members who are inspired to pursue the Vidyadhara’s vajrayana path. I don’t think the Vidyadhara would be pleased with the notion that such sangha members need to be “referred” to teachers outside Shambhala International. Do you really think that after 40 years, we don’t have people who are qualified and capable of doing this?
Dear James
Thanks for your post.
Yes I thought I was being rather extreme when I said SI was going nuts but as you have brought up the farcical notion too perhaps I got the emotional feeling of things right aswell– sense of nuts in the case of friendly nuts though as though just man let the older students do their thing –it really will not threaten anything –jesus man!
Let me tell you where I am really coming from –I can see that the society thingie of the shambhala teachings is somewhat needed now and why there has been this growing realisation about that because of the times but then again I just can not disregard what I have indeed experienced in regard to my interactions with the vajrayana –you just cant do that –its an impossibility its always in your mind, your very being…..its like you would be putting yourself in some very weird place indeed…..the outlands of Tibet that Trungpa mentioned for example and that I and many people cant do- in fact in some ways I could be come a very good SIer it would be very easy for me to do that –why do I always choose the hard way?! But no its really a question that I can not disregard my history and experiences. Also too in fact it would be very great just to give up the vajrayana because man it is difficult but now I can not even do that because its in my very braincells after all these years.
So I have somewhat concluded that I will practice the vajrayana and go back to the original way of the shambhala teachings and forward them around a Naropa style way – could work a little.
So interesting stuff about Padmasambhava –illegal – how do you make religion illegal -close the spaces to their teachings – thats very interesting, and it happened in Tibet? May be we should get something from some one in the know about what really occurred at this time in the promulgation of the vajrayana. Another article?
I dont know –thinking about Tibetan teachers and the Loppon again I think the practitioners have to have close relationship with the knowledge of what the vajrayana teachings open up in you, but as to allowing that person to run my and others society etc etc I think their needs to be more interaction on that –not going to give up my connection to my own somewhat questioning and critical intelligence to any teacher whatsoever again!? And I even think Trungpa would be with me on this as he told the Regent to express his own views in the meetings at Vajradhatu and jesus here again man –speak up!
So I dont know its very difficult, the whole thing is difficult re the monarch and guru principles. Ray really very interesting – he stepped out – I value the stepping out –the Loppon did not step out and seems to be hedging his bets – yes who could ‘you’ connect to- its all very debatable re the politics and stuff and mavericks so its transitions times baby until we all get our revelations like St Paul.
Also is Ash having tea and scones?! Wheres the man disappeared to?
Best
Rita Ashworth
Dear Andrew
Just thinking about your comment a bit further.
Yes we are probably talking about 100s may be thousands of people who have practiced fully over the last forty years. So yes now we are getting into the nitty-gritty of how things could be taken forward, but is the whole thing to go foward politically as people being ‘sanctioned’ to teach the vajrayana or are those people finally just going to do it without the sanctioning.
RFS has just been raising this really essential problemo in the transmission of the teachings here in the west and at the moment very little headway. Let me be a bit provocative as I know you probably think journalists should be and say dont wait for the sanctioning –do the teachings first and wait for SI to get back to you. If enough people started doing this do you think we could then be ignored as much as we being ignored. Is this schism –or is this just doing the right thing at the right moment in time. The forty year thing –does that mean anything if people dont really examine whats going on in their very brains and thoughts processes.
Maybe we need our Lutheran moments in the west to really get things going perhaps it takes groups of open-minded individuals to just say there are other ways of reaching the Kingdom
Best
Rita Ashworth
Rita asked:
“Is the whole thing to go foward politically as people being ‘sanctioned’ to teach the vajrayana or are those people finally just going to do it without the sanctioning?”
This is the open question. It is clear that the Vidyadhara’s teachings and path will go forward in any case, because they are unstoppable and because there are enough senior students who will ensure that they do.
My hope is that this will happen within Shambhala International, as this is what the Vidyadhara had intended. Even though it may seem that positions are fixed on this matter, I don’t believe that is the case. I remember when Apple stock was under $10 a share–six or so years ago?–and now I think it’s over $200. When it was under $10, nobody wanted to touch it–they thought it was headed for the black hole. As we have been taught, nihilism and eternalism are concepts–particularly strong ones–so we get caught by them, over and over. (Unfortunately, I didn’t buy Apple back then!) I think it was the reapparance of Steve Jobs that was game changing.
So it ain’t over until the fat lady sings!
I believe the Vidyadhara’s path and teachings will continue, one way or the other. In my opinion, the karma would be much better for a lot of people if the leadership of the organization recognizes that this is a no-brainer, and applies whatever resources are required to ensure that this practice path and these teachings, texts, etc. are available to anyone who chooses to follow the path he set out for us.
Dear Andrew
I welcome your statement.
It is difficult in GB to understand what is going on over there re the teachings of CTR even with checking out stuff through the internet grapevine.
As you have said there seems from your post the idea that there are so many senior students out there that will not let the Vidyadhara’s teaching stream fizzle into history –this is reassuring to know as you must obviously know a bit more than what is going on than I do.
Of course there is Ray –so stuff will go on there and now it seems there will be others –myself I would be interested if those others could make a statement about things much as concerned individuals do when writing to the press in the UK as a unified group instead of single actions of people somewhat stepping out. I suppose in some manner we are heading for the clinch moment that seems to be what is happening to me.
Also with James remarks about Padmasambhava I begin to wonder about the whole project what indeed westerners should do at this time-some quandary. Another thing to throw into the debate for the whole thing.
In addition the notion that CTR intended for his teaching stream to continue is refreshing to know because even now people are doubting this.
Myself I do indeed see the teachings that CTR originated indeed continuing and in the fullness of time progressing into possible other forms with the education of students. The key to this seems to be to me the original way the shambhala teachings were taught to preserve a good container for the vajrayana teachings. So any discussions that happens over there between senior students should I think prioritise this. Yes I am not against change and never have been but sudden change to such a degree as has happened in SI is not to me a feasible way to proceed for any conception of enlightened society or culture.
Furthermore the no brainer aspect of SI ‘allowing’ resources to be directed towards the above seems to me to be an obvious way to proceed. However I would not want any senior students to be co-opted into an SI plan before such matters are discussed widely within the sangha.
Of course any such rapprochement is tentative for me because of what has happened in the recent past but we shall see.
I can get through most things in my life but the idea of starting again re dharma institutions is a big one but if that has to be the case I shall follow my conscience in these matters as have other people have done in the past. I just hope that people will now stand up and be counted in these turbulent times about the essential matter of preserving and forwarding the Vidyadharas vision for a shambhala society open to all.
Yours in the dharma and the vision of the Great Eastern Sun.
Rita Ashworth
Stockport UK
Rita, have been ‘away’ building a brick oven, but also forgot to have the notification feature turned on for this thread. Have ‘built’ about 6,000 pounds (avoirdupois), 4,000 pounds to go.
The vajrayana issue has been clearly identified here and I have been ‘pushing’ a more Hin. approach. There is a choke point on that level, however, which in turn might lubricate the tantric one later on, namely whether or not local ‘leaders’ or ‘missionaries’, acting alone or as part of an official sangha, can simply practice and teach and introduce people in the Refuge Vow. My understanding is that this is already the case in that in theory the Refuge Vow can be taken on one’s own by simply reciting the formula three times with genuine motivation, so there is no qualification required, ultimately, to help guide people into taking that vow. But it would be a very different situation if this were acknowledged officially.
Then you have the Bodhisattva Vow, which requires more of a preceptor, even a master-disciple type situation in that there is a kalyanamitra relationship often involved with this yana.
I don’t have the inclination or resources at this point (library-wise), but my suspicion is that this area has already been thoroughly explored over millenia by previous Buddhist sanghas, most of whom are ultimately rather autonomous.
Now from the Vidyadhara, we don’t have that sense of things so perhaps the above line of enquiry is irrelevant, even unhelpful. Perhaps the only way for his lineage to continue is under the umbrella of the official organisation.
And if that is the case, then we are left with three propositions:
a) his lineage is being carried on by SMR and S.I., changing regularly from time to time just as it always has done since inception
b) the official path has departed from CTR’s original vision and practice in which case those who wish to perpetuate have to do so outside the group
c) without getting into extreme judgment calls, perhaps it’s as simple as just that S.I. needs to be requested to make additional changes to accommodate the teaching and practice aspirations of various of CTR’s students who wish to remain in the larger flock, but want to operate in ways different from what is currently sanctioned.
If Dr. Ray’s story is an example of c), it appears that b) happened. (But I don’t know the actual story there.)
It is definitely a bit of a conundrum. I still feel that more autonomy for local sanghas is, albeit simple and humble, an important paradigmatic starting point because it both promotes and sanctions teacher student relationships on the local level from the get-go and from that allows local teachers to grow as such as they work with the journey of their students. And it is this relationship which underlies the tantric path, although of course there are many other factors therein. Still, without that principle in action on the local level, nothing else is possible. And the key here is that the individuals in question, both the teachers and the students, are consenting adults, so to speak, mutually responsible for this relationship rather than some organization from on high being responsible. That is a key switcheroo. Something like that.
Dear Ash
Nice to hear from you again –hope you are enjoying building the oven.
Interesting comment on Refuge – I will look into that also the Bodhisattva Vow regarding having a preceptor.
Yes Shambhala and SI….the debate goes on and on. What can one say further, mainly I am not giving up on my ‘own’ culture and its connection to the shambhala teachings and terma in terms of Art, poetry and maybe eventually new terma that comes about spontaneously from the devotion of the student. It seems to me that you cant now fence in the shambhala teachings into any one way –they are just out there now – merrily propagating in some subtle way-thats my intuition about whats happening.
So yes dont think anyone has departed from anything, or schismed off-just that peoples connections to these teachings is going to manifest in many,many, many different ways so the lineage thingie is beginning to be besides the point because whatever SI does – me, my mind is connected to these teachings and I think they will come about in peoples minds in the fruition of time any way. This is the way ‘religion’ has always worked in the west from the rebellious quarters such as with Paul and way up to George Fox and Wesley.
As to Vajrayana well the essence now I think might even be that older students will also just start getting stuff because you cant switch your brain off to the teachings now that they too are out there. So I think the Tibetan forms now developing in SI might also be superseded by what might one may call the present times and the entering into new modes of consciousness. I know these ramblings might seem a little audacious but I think things are just happening now that ‘spiritually’ did not happen before – i.e as in the old hippie phrase –its cosmic and far out man!
So yes above are all intuitions but good intuitions to base a society on I think rather than saying we have a fixed way to get it –religion, art etc has never been about the one way though people like to limit themselves to this notion.
Umbrella of SI? Dont know the whole earth has been umbrellaed by CTRs teachings-begin to think they just have pieces of paper in their vaults – the real essence of the teachings are just in the very air and I dont think you can stop them spreading in manic and sane ways now. So yes definitely Transition times.
What are you going to put in the oven…..what kind of breads….hope the whole thing works!
Hope also Mark Szp. puts up the paypal section or is working on the site – I think a lot of people will contribute – many people round the globe want some form of communicating about Vajrayana and shambhala outside of the SI set-up now. But if SI revamps of course may be there could still be conversations.
Well best from old gb.
Rita Ashworth
O yes Ash – I agree wholeheartedly about your ideas about local sanghas having more autonomy –that does have to happen…..thats the democracy aspect of the triad and any way too that is happening naturally in the world now too with the net and the development of connections between people-here also you cant keep people fenced in in regards to governance as well…..have you seen that doc on channel 4 download called Us Now –was a revelation to me watching it regarding political organisation. Yes let the constituency be SI …..it would work better than the present set-up I believe. Just dont know why people are not thinking about governance radically in SI-these are radical times and SI still seems to be in the twentieth century to me regarding hierarchy.
Well must stop…..got to get up early tomorrow.
Best again
Rita
yo just checked Rays website out -and he has put on a meditation regarding darkeness meditation from a dathun programme. So I dont know what he is up to-it seems that people ‘enjoyed’ it though!? So yes stand by for Ray doing stuff out of the blue or should it be the black?
Interesting move….re also the teachings now going to these dark retreats in SI aswell..wonder what it bodes about the age. Would be great if some of Rays students could comment on this…..as I am not sure what is really happening now in older students minds about how to proceed in relation to theses dark retreats generally. Is Ray doing this because he thought CTR would have wanted to go this way or is it purely the Times as SIers are saying for the changes that are happening.
Me just sitting whilst I watch the display of all these movements. Perhaps I am doing a Shibhata Sensei move and just stabilsing my hara -ho-hum . Yes also as to older dignatries could some one somewhere interview Peter Brook before he goes into the light at it were.
Best
Rita Ashworth
I found Mark Hazell’s comments intriguing and confusing and wondered if someone could clarify for me. What, specifically, is a mahamudra retreat? What Nyingma practices are required before Scorpion Seal? I find it hard to believe that hundreds of Shambhala Buddhists who have already attended SS retreats have completed three years of Nyingma practice.
I’m afraid that it’s probably the same as anything else: if you know somebody and you’ve been a good boy or girl, the requirements are lifted.
Anyway, it is heartbreaking that the Sakyong doesn’t give a damn about students leaving the sangha or feeling shunned or outcast (words various persons have used). To me, Shambhala Buddhism feels contrived.
SMC is no longer strictly a dharma center, SI holds mega-mandala offerings in order to increase the sangha’s generosity (you’ve got to be kidding; all those fundraising letters and tours didn’t do it?), and Richard Reoch fakes news releases in order to look cool (the people in the DC shrine room the night of Obama’s election were kasung on duty and other staff; everybody else in DC was busy celebrating the election–too bad he couldn’t be honest about that).
I think grassroots activity to give life to the path the Vidyadhara laid out is warranted, and I would appreciate senior teachers’ support for grass roots efforts.
Oops! I was probably off-topic. Sorry! But if anyone could answer my questions, I’d appreciate it. Obviously, though, I’m no longer enamored w/Shambhala International. It’s just another organized religion as far as I can tell.
Dear Sandy
As I have read but I dont know the infinite details you do the Rigden Ngondro then the Scorpion Seal Assemblies for three years which culminates in a dark retreat at the end of the fourth year. After this you decide to continue with werma practice or go on to Kagyu ngondro. I think I have got that about right.
Heres why I disagree with the whole thing – I find the portrayal of the Rigden King not totally suitable for western culture – I think we can develop other depictions of a Rigden King principle. Indeed I just have this intuition that that is going to happen with new terma but when I dont know. I think the whole thing should be open to everyone completely and not limited just to Buddhists –everyone can touch into these shambhala teachings, – they are almost elemental in construction you dont need the guru principle to operate with them – to me that is a complete and utter fallacy and I think people in positions of power in SI know this too but they are not speaking up. Common sense has left the building like the veritable Elvis.
What can you do further to explain the whole thing to people? Yes what is happening with SI is just so bizarre with the current vision of Shambhala.
Shambhala is like zen you get it or you dont get it and the process for reaching it could be through art, poetry, sitting meditation and god knows what discipline you care to think of. Its not me saying this about the way of shambhala but Dilgo Khentyse Rinpoche in the 1980s. So failing me not receiving the big switcheroos about shambhala but may be only briefest minutes of glimpses like your everyday bod I dont know much more that any one can say about the whole thing. Just may be watch the people slowly wandering away from SI and creating their own Kingdom which might indeed reveal the coming terma in the west. As to the future manifestation of the Kingdom may be it does have to come from group practice but no one can be excluded from this group practice –shambhala is too wide open for that.
As to Mark Hazell’s quote from Trungpa Rinpoche –that quote does not to me validate SB in any way so I think he is reading stuff into it that is not there. Myself have always seen the shambhala teachings as fruitional/complementary so that there is not that hung up feeling that you get sometimes from the vajrayana so shambhala is like the sutble delightful pattern in the carpet. As to non-Buddhists also practicing them yes I think they can infuse any rigorous discipline thats why CTR left them wide open for people and indeed those people might ‘get’ them better than any one in SI –whose to say?
Senior students supporting the grass roots? I hear you calling for them to manifest in this direction but only a few have split. It needs some one in SI who is a mega VIPer to break ranks now who could that be? I think there may be a few waiting in the wings –thats my hope anyway.
I feel like singing that Roy Orbison song – its over, its over – I really do like him as a singer do you?
Well enough said.
Best from old gb.
Rita Ashworth
Hi Rita –
Thanks for responding to my note. I was curious about Mark’s comment on the new path–what is the mahamudra retreat–and found the answer. I’m still curious about Nyingma practices included in the SI doc. Which Nyingma practice?
Anyhoo, you wrote about the Shambhala terma: ” – they are almost elemental in construction you dont need the guru principle to operate with them – to me that is a complete and utter fallacy.” Did you mean that one does not need guru principle to understand Shambhala teachings?
You’re quite right about the senior teachers of course; don’t expect anyone to break away–and honestly if I wanted to practice w/existing Acharyas I’d go to SI.
Reggie Ray was the first and probably the last to break away. He has been sharing dark retreats, as you mentioned, as have other teachers. They are another traditional practice.
Thanks again, Rita.
Sandy
Hi Rita:
Thanks for your note. I was referring to Mark’s description of the current path: sorry, I didn’t see the quote you referred to. I did a little searching and found the answer to the Mahamudra practice I was curious about. Do you know what Nyingma practices SI “requires”? Curious.
Rita, in your response, you noted, regarding Shambhala teachings:” – they are almost elemental in construction you dont need the guru principle to operate with them – to me that is a complete and utter fallacy…” I wasn’t sure, from the context, whether you believe guru principle is necessary or not for understanding the Shambhala teachings?
No, I don’t expect any Acharyas to leave SI, certainly. Other senior teachers? Who knows? Besides, if one wanted to practice w/them it would be easy enough to attend an SI program.
Yes, Reggie is sharing dark retreats. He has been going on dark retreats for several years, if I am remembering what I read correctly. Dark retreat is another traditional practice, not specific to Trungpa. Anyway people have died for billions of years w/o dark retreat. I doubt that one month in a box is going to make much difference one way or another.
Thanks again, Rita.
Sandy
Rita,
I re-read Mark’s post and see the quote–most of the text, wasn’t it?!! I’m not sure what CTR meant by “purifies” except that the Shambhala teachings cut the religious quality that accompanies strong Buddhist practice, as Trungpa says in the quote.
But that isn’t happening w/SB–quite the opposite. The secular quality has been made religious. So the power of purification is being lost: it is only present when it is secular–once it becomes part of a religion, it’s just more religion.
In addition, w/SB the contrast between religious and secular is lost–and as we know, contrast is a powerful teacher. Unfortunate. The two need to be separate, IMHO.
Thanks, Rita.
Sandy
Dear Sandy
Yes I believe you dont need the guru principle in the sense of seeing it in terms of the vajrayana relationship which is so close and which the Sakyong is insisting upon in the new way of promulgating the shambhala teachings.
Of course you need a qualified person to show you the path way to shambhala may be in terms of a master warrior or artist but jesus I think in the coming times there will be so many people able to do that if the dam(re one way in this sense) now instituted by SI as to the spread of these teachings was taken away and you let people experience them fully from all traditions.
I think shambhala could possibly be manifested by group practice I would give them that but that is a pow-wow situation that you indeed do get in native American traditions anyway –so whose is the leader there – the man or woman that shows you how to dance the various dances?! No its a kind of group situation –the power comes from people interacting with the environment which is exemplified by the drala concept.
You just need to provide the spaces and practices for these shambhala teachings to manifest –they are coming in a manifold manner I think because of the times and peoples disillusionment with materialism and of course people in SI know this I believe but its heads down and one way it seems for now.
Yes failing to go into my own personal history in great depth on a public forum I would still say from my own limited conception of these teachings that they are fundamentally open to everyone and they come about through solitude, art, meditation and anything that is somewhat a discipline as HHDKR said. So yes its the discipline that makes them manifest whether termed religious or secular and that is not the guru principle here as HHDKR said. I think he said this because he clued into the karma of the west and the situation here and of course The Times thingie –such a vast vision of these teachings. Why are not people checking in with new HHDKR about this? Get as many people as possible to ask him about this stuff from all religious persuasions then perhaps we will have a more rounded view point of what is going on. I am still prepared to see the present Sakyong as an Emperor somewhat like in the terms of the present Japanese Emperor in upholding the general power of a Kingdom but in no way can I limit myself to him personally as my main teacher with these teachings that just does not jive with me.
Well hope this has explained where I am coming from a bit more and yes Ray with the dark retreats interesting –hints of shambhala happening –they must be Nyingmpa based but then you cant stop Ray developing and developing the teachings –may be he will get something going as regards the Kingdom concept but may be call it by a different name. Yes the whole shambhala thingeroo is so much up in the air.
Best from a sunny UK for once
Rita Ashworth
dark retreat (yangti practice) has been taught in the dzogchen context for a long time. My understanding (the little I have….) is that once a person has some stability in trekcho that dark retreat is very useful for “jumpstarting” thogal practice.
In Chogyal Namkhai Norbu’s center in MA there is a dark retreat house with individual rooms for up to 6 practitioners at once. He has students start with 1 or 2 days and then build up to a week or two before doing the full 49 day. The reason for this is that some people simply cannot handle the experience.
I have only done 1 day, but would really like to try 3-7 days. The border between awake and asleep and awake and dream gets very indistinct, and you tend to sleep alot — it seems there is a lot of tension involved in holding our world together visually. When you are in the dark the other senses ramp up quite quickly – food is usually kept in double tupperware containers so you don’t smell it so much!
Michael–Thank you for your description of your experience as well as information about dark retreat.
Rita–Thank you for the clarification.
Warmly,
Sandy
Well
I feel pretty sure that tat you need permission from the teacher as well.
People received many Togal transmissions, yet was told not to do them by the same teacher.
Oh
And Sandy, I forgot to mention that in the Bio of Chogyam Trungpa, it mentioned that when he visited Bath in Italy, he said people have lost respect of their local Deities. So that is somewhat the Shambhala aspect.
And James
We have to recall Rinpoche was an out cast as well. He had to work from the ground up.
Rob wrote
“Well
I feel pretty sure that tat you need permission from the teacher as well.
People received many Togal transmissions, yet was told not to do them by the same teacher.”
If you were referring to the dark retreat practice / cabin etc. it was built by the community specifically for dark retreat, and people DO need the transmission. The cabin has been in use since the late eighties.
I’m little in announcing this.
There are many celebs who practice pointing out. (like over a year).
Mingyur Rinpoche’s Benefit Concert starring Lou Reed and Laurie Anderson
http://www.yongeypeaceconcert.org/ Laurie Anderson & Lou Reed benefiting the…
Rob,
Not sure what your point was in your note to me re: “local deities lost respect for the people of Bath, Italy…”
If anyone has a problem with the fact that the Vidyadhara’s Buddhist practice path and teaching stream are not currently available within Shambhala International, or any other issues about how the Shambhala and Buddhist practices and teachings are being presented, you might want to write a letter to (Acharya) Adam Lobel who is in charge of the “new curriculum”. After communicating with a number of people I found out he is the most appropriate person to contact about this matter. I wrote him about 10 days ago.
alobel@fas.harvard.edu
Sandy
It meant respecting your local culture, and the gods..
We do Naga offerings at SMC.
Rob
Dear Rob, Sandy and Andrew
Yes Bath – I think CTR meant Bath in the UK near Bristol.
The first I heard of it mentioned in this sense of the shambhala teachings as having a certain power was in Fabrice Midals interview with Julia Sagebien on the Project. Hmmmmm –yes made me think about ol gb and Bath and I think CTR was right. Why right? Well made me think back to when I first saw Bath whilst on a rail trip to Bristol and I was just generally looking out the window then Bath! It was like a city on a hill –kind of fairy tale like and tinged with the sun and then after about a couple of minutes it just disappeared so it was kind of like an apparition to me in the sense of what was that –o yes its Bath! Subsequently learned it is a very rich, touristy place with of course the Roman Baths –so it is quiet ancient, perhaps even more a special spot before the Romans came aswell. So thats my Bath story –maybe you could utube it and get a feel for it.
Andrew thanks for Adams email – I will think about writing him something, yes will have to think in detail about that. Still he might get a pile of letters but what would he do with them? In the UK when I worked in national government we did have a consultation process with organisations before Bills were enacted –democracy in the flesh, but of course if a government wants to bring in bad laws it can do so aswell sometimes with devilish consequences of course with Maggie Thatcher and the poll tax. You know the poll tax went because enough people in the country were prepared not to pay it and I heard later on a documentary on radio 4 that the courts could not cope with non-payment cases going through the legal process –indeed the whole thing would have been a shambles.
Yes well I just dont know whats happening statewise as to shambhala miffling itself up. What is happening? So say yes Adam got so much stuff from the disgruntled what would he do? Change the curriculum? The thing is we have no democratic process about changing anything in this –its just individuals in charge of the finance as to courses and the Sakyongs say so on things. So where indeed would Adams loyalty lie with the sangha and their many questions or the Sakyong ultimately. No I believe to sort out all these problemos you have to have a more consultative process going on in a democratic assembly such as the National Assembly that CTR talked about on the Chronicle project. Yes even doctrine, practices would have to discussed at this assembly perhaps you would have to have a department for that in an enlightened society ( and yes even within that security for the crazy wisdom teachings aswell –religion is a minefield isn’t it?!)
Still even though I have said all the above I will still think about sending Adam a letter. Myself I would not want to be the Curriculum Overseer Extraordinaire that also seems daft to me aswell because most changes in most religions are done through a thorough scholarly approach with various commissions and extensive consultation with the laity as in the Vatican Commissions which follow through on due process aswell.
Well best from a very, very sunny UK –wonder whats happening with the weather?!
Rita Ashworth
The aggressive sniping and language being used lately on this thread degrades the conversation, and this site, by association, IMO.
Dear Andrew
Yes getting back to the argument of how one voices ones disagreement with what is happening.
I think I posted my comment on your comment re letter-writing because that puts the onus on the individual again somewhat against the prevailing current scene and in my experience if individuals do not come together in somewhat of a broad group consensus their thoughts can be brushed off as the voice of a minority. I cant tell you how many letters I sent out with standard responses to things as a civil servant from the British government much as has been the case with the standard response about the debate about the Vajradhara thangka.
So I suppose I am talking tactics/strategy about the best way to indeed make a complaint and in what manner one should do that.
Of course I have suggested one approach before ie having a group letter being sent to the Sakyong with may be hundreds of people signing it –that indeed would be something to undertake but furthermore you could publish that letter outside of the community –that is indeed saying something about the depth of the situation occurring but people might want to consider it.
I was being somewhat flippant about Mr Lobel I would agree with you there, but of course that is down to British irony but I do believe you cant overhaul a curriculum and practices with a what shall we call it a small group of people.
Mentioning the Vatican I did indeed check up the Vatican commissions on the web and they are massive so many scholars, and so much contact with the laity. And of course we have the Church of England with its Synod and even it has much more voting powers within it than the Shambhala Congress! So indeed if SI was into reform you do indeed have to have a National Assembly as CTR wanted –so complaint has to be set within appropriate and consensual parameters and institutions. So I think if you dont have those institutions and those parameters you are proverbially just in the minority space with your individual concerns re the act of complaint. So yes strategy as to complaint is a big arena.
So yes I would welcome more discussion of the National Assembly concept from people in the hope that such an institution if it indeed did come into being would represent many peoples points of view on an enlightened society and discuss ways that that enlightened society could be inclusive and diverse.
Best from a still sunny uk-whats happening!
Rita Ashworth
Lets not forget our sense of humor….
Dear Andrew:
I don’t disagree with you..
If you have a wife and family, let Carl’s Daddy and Carl jr, and Rob Graffis send them emails, or post here , unsolicited, that tell’s them to go “f__k themselves, or go “f___k” themselves in the ear. Then let Chris and I know, when you receive such emails, how you would respond.. Explain to your children and grandchildren what it means. When someone sends emails that says I want to “f___k you in the ear” or “f___k you” and then says “let’s talk” or “let’s not forget our sense of humour,” or “that was a private communication” as though that would make a year and a half of that kind of abuse alright. And then those people can get on this site, and carry on their “dharma conversations” as though they did nothing , that it was just fine. And you agree that it was just fine, by allowing them to continue on, as though none of this was happening.
Let me know what your reactions would be. When you open your emails, month after month, and see these kind of abuses over and over, and then see these people carrying on on here, discussing “dark retreats” and practice issues. Tell me how it would make you and your wife and children feel. All this, is a very good example of the acceptable ROT in this community and the cretins that are left, running it and participating in it. I predict it has about two more years left, before it crashes.
Sincerely,
Robert
Dear Robert
I sympathise with your last post regarding your and Chris’s position.
I have been hearing recently through various grapevines that conversations about the changes are getting blunter because perhaps of lack of dialogue.
Its difficult for people abroad to gauge what is actually going on in the States and Canada about all the discussions – so when things blow up on rfs it is again difficult to know what has been going on in the recent past to cause that. But yes you are right people should challenge peoples outbursts a bit more so I will endeavour to do that in future myself.
Myself I keep posting here because if I keep asking questions I am discovering more and more about how the Vidyadhara viewed the promulgation of the teachings in the world. Peoples recollections for example that he thought RMC should be a vipassana centre bring a whole new viewpoint to the discussions we are having on here. So I will keep posting because I am curious about what more might surface in regard to what the Vidyadhara said about various social and ‘political’ ways to manifest an enlightened society.
Well best
Rita Ashworth
Rita, for the record, what I heard was that there should be ‘a vipassana center’ there rather than the whole place should be a v center. The whole place was to be sort of a large, North American / international type situation, which I think is what is being worked towards now, albeit under heavy pressure from overly large debt load.
Ash
I recall when I was 19 at a Naropa Institute talk, and the I went up to the the Vidyadhara looking like really depressed. He Said “You feel like crying?”.and
I burstered out in tears on his lap. He whispered in my ear “There is Winter, Spring, Summer and Fall, and Winter again”.
These aren’t bragging rights, I wish somebody could archive this.
I will brag more later (:.
I’m sure we all used the F word on everybody at some point.
Rob
I would also kindly let “the other Rob”, I was concerned about his social security benefits and gave them advice about it.. I recommended my own Doctor to him for a similar medical disease wish as far as I know, he sees. .
I have my problems. So do they.
Andrew,
I guess writing Adam is something, but…
I haven’t met him but judging from the community talk a few months ago, he can spin logic the way the Harlem Globe Trotters can spin basketballs, and he’s a systems man. He works with a pristine logic and does what he was instructed to do: apparently create a new curriculum that doesn’t glaringly conflict with Buddhist dharma and which incorporates the Shambhala teachings and it’s new3 practices, (which are apparently in constant flux).
I’m puzzled that someone who has had as little as he with Trungpa Rinpoche’s teachngs has been given so much apparent authority. I’m not saying he’s not a nice guy or anything, but how much respect has he earned for his realization. I don’t mean his ability to juggle logic like a Vulcan, I mean realization that helps others make progress on the path. And yet he is the man?
And anyway, what can he do? Tweak the curriculum until all the complaints he receives can be categorized and undermined and explained as misunderstandings in this that and the other way? Really what can he do?
I go back again to the notion which I think is true: without a vajra master, there is no vajrayana. And as nice a guy as Adam may be, a vajra master he is not. A vajra master is what is missing, not a curriculum plan.
For the latter, write Adam.
For the former… ?
Dear James, Andrew
Yes I too think Adam has been put in some weird position as the curriculum manager aswell. How could he and such a small bunch of people oversee such massive changes which would carry such a diverse bunch of SI members along especially people who have been practicing for over 3o to 40 years.
I think in respect of Christianity for that is what I have studied aswell as Buddhism you would have to have a commission as I said before with a thorough consultative process going on with everyone and even then at the end of that whole process you would still have to accommodate people who had different opinions within your church body as is the case with the Anglican church and its conception of a Broad Church.
Also the conception of an enlightened society does come in here as well in the sense of the society being diverse and inclusive, and perhaps even practicing multiple practices which are indeed sanctioned by a vajra master even if that vajra master has his/her own way of thinking about the evolution of an enlightened society.
The concept of society/societies is just not based on a one way fits all conception aswell as we have learned this from our forays into communism, and capitalism. I think Ash, I and James have discovered that in a exemplarily fashion on our table for example with our discussion about the Triad of CTR’s ideal of society as having a monarchical, democratic and communistic base and even here people have had to unpack our notions of what these sociological concepts might mean in the widest sense. They dont mean what we thought they meant – as was given by the example of the ‘Janitor King’ on Trungpa Rinpoches discussion of enlightened society on utube.
Of course too there is growing maturity of the students themselves. I believe that westerners can be vajra masters and can receive shambhala terma –all this has been hinted at on rfs by Mark Smiths report when he stated the vajrayana lineage could be passed from guru to disciple as CTR stated. In addition god knows what is going to happen to the shambhala teachings because there has also been hints about this on the Chronicle project when Mr Neutral stated that there would be more shambhala terma coming as a direct statement also from CTR-now is that terma just going to be received by the Sakyong or the students also –this also is debateable.
So if SI is not discussing even a little of the above how can it go on its way with any believable sense of credence from the general population in creating paths and curriculums to follow because at some point too the world with its scholars are going to be writing articles about the institutions of SI and its political and social functions and poking holes in it likewise.
Well in some respects may be the game of voicing these matters to SI has to continue before anything of any real value happens outside or within SI itself but the signs of engagement with any of these ideas from the organisation itself are somewhat lacking.
Well best.
Rita Ashworth
Rita:
You wrote:
“Also the conception of an enlightened society does come in here as well in the sense of the society being diverse and inclusive, and perhaps even practicing multiple practices which are indeed sanctioned by a vajra master even if that vajra master has his/her own way of thinking about the evolution of an enlightened society.”
You seem to have conflated Buddhism and Shambhala, which is of course understandable, considering how these two wisdom traditions have been intermixed since the death of the Dorje Dradul.
It’s clear from the way he presented the Shambhala teachings that, while closely related to Buddhism, Shambhala is independent.
In his Foreword to Shambhala: The Sacred Path of the Warrior, he wrote:
“I am honoured and grateful that in the past I have been able to present the wisdom and dignity of human life within the context of the religious teachings of Buddhism. Now it gives me tremendous joy to present the principles of Shambhala warriroship and to show how we can conduct our lives as warriros with fearlessness and rejoicing, without destroying one another.”
Later, he wrote:
“Over the past seven years, I have been presenting a series of ‘Shambhala teachings’ that use the image of the Shambhala kingdom to represent the ideal of secular enlightenment, that is, the possibility of uplifting our personal existence and that of others without the help of any religious outlook. For although the Shambhala tradition is founded on the sanity and gentleness of the Buddhist tradition, at the same time, it has its own independent basis, which is directly cultivating who and what we are as human beings.”
In the Shambhala teachings, there is no vajra master.
Thanks all, for your honesty in your posts. Again, I think that the Sakyong, S.I.’s administrators, Acharyas and everyone else associated with the community is very straightforward in what they believe to be true. I think they’ve discussed it as much as they will.
I think the main difference between SI and the persons on this list is the idea that the Shambhala teachings, through Werma sadhana practice, should be open to all, without taking the Sakyong as one’s root guru or vajra master.
I believe that. I don’t care that all the aforementioned SI officials–who have told me I’m wrong about a lot of things for the past 30 years–continue to tell me I’m wrong.
I think that’s why I feel claustrophobic at Shambhala events nowadays. They’re too religious for me. Chogyam Trungpa hated that. He criticized us when we were too religious. He was more interested in developing vajra warriors, if you ask me–which nobody has!
The question is: how do sangha members w/this disagreement move forward?
Anyway, that’s my two cents.
Thanks for the reminder about sniping, Andrew.
Warmly,
Sandy
Dear Andrew
I take your point –perhaps I was not too clear.
I too believe the traditions are independent.
And you are right the shambhala teachings do not need a vajra master for them to ‘work’ in the world and yes these two paths have been conflated over the last few years.
What I meant to emphasise with that paragraph was that to have an enlightened society one has to leave room for multiple practices to occur. So I was trying to emphasise the inclusivity aspect of an enlightened society which would include all forms of religious and secular practice. So here the conception of an enlightened society would be a sense of openness to people and different takes on how you ‘reached’ what is real, for want of a better word.
However it is timely to read your post because I have been musing about the possible future of the shambhala teachings outside of the SI context lately. Sometimes I wonder if Ray and others will write further on the shambhala teachings outside of the present SI set-up. I also have in my mind that what Ray has done with the dharma others will do similarly soon with the shambhala teachings. Indeed I was wondering if people with their various articles and stances here and elsewhere were testing the waters as to how proceed with the shambhala teachings on their own.
Even the Sakyong has said if you dont want to be his student after warriors assembly go and then do your own thing –this seems to be his message to the many Christians that formerly attended Kalapa Assembly. Also within my own braincells and interest in theatre I am trying to think how you could manifest a court principle within that context so that it kind of grabs people with its majesty. Lately thinking of the stage as the court with huge colourful banners and maybe something particularly powerful happening on there. So yes going into that aspect of things like Grotowski, the playwright, and seeing theatre as being sacred. Could that be an initial start in something happening with the teachings – do you always need a sadhana to make ordinary magic?
Indeed I think my own connection to shambhala came more from reading both poetry and prose, listening to music, and being somewhat introspective for about two years –yes so these are all ‘secular’ activities which are conducive to shambhala errupting on the scene, that I do know about.
Yes it would be interesting if people could post on that to state if they are thinking along parallel lines to me in taking the shambhala teachings into more possible sacred environments and here I dont mean solely seeing theatre as top up to shambhala art but almost an actual empowerment in a secular sense. Do you think that is possible –I think I do from my own experience.
In addition I think some people might be making connections with shamanism and the shambhala teachings. Ellen Mains discussed in her article on the project that she had been studying shamanism, and then yes too on the Chronicle Project there is seeing the shambhala teachings like Shinto. (I wonder if the rfsers could organise a trip to Japan to actually check out the Shinto shrines and ‘religion’ –that would be interesting.)
So, yes Andrew I hope the above has clarified my position a bit more, yes I do indeed wonder how people are thinking of the shambhala teachings now.
Best from a still sunny UK!
Rita Ashworth
Rita tells us the Sakyong Mipham said: “…if you don’t want to be his student after warriors assembly go and then do your own thing.” If so, The Sakyong Mipham has made a fairly clear statement that Shambhala is not about creating enlightened society in any wider sense of the word, nor does he feel any responsibility in carrying forth what his father set in motion regarding Kagyu/Nyingma Buddhist teachings. If he said that he’s saying it’s his school, period. Did he say that?
That’s like telling all of Trungpa Rinpoche’s students who don’t accept him as their vajra master to take a hike. I’d love to hear from someone about how lineage is actually handled traditionally. I doubt very much this would be exemplary.
Did he actually say that?
Dear James
Thanks for your last post.
I have been checking my ‘facts’ on what I said re my last post.
Heres why I think that I made that statement. I must have had in the back of my mind the Kalapa Assembly May 23, 2000 letter to the sangha by the Sakyong where he states his reasons for having Shambhala Buddhism and for him being a Shambhala Buddhist.
Within that letter also he writes of other religions stating:
“People who are inspired by shambhala teachings who practice a different religion are welcomed, and they will enrich the Shambhala mandala as Shambhalian Christians, Shambhalian Jews and so forth”
Well thinking about this statement yes well you can do the shambhala training up to Warriors Assembly but you will still be a member of your own church(and by inference also I think being a humanist aswell) so obviously to me that means you would be taking the shambhala teachings up to Warriors Assembly back to your own tradition and infusing those traditions perhaps with the shambhala teachings to a degree one could say that from reading this letter. Do you think that is feasible way to see that situation? Otherwise I think you would be a bit schizoid if you were jumping from centre to centre.
So I dont know perhaps we could have a copy of that letter put up on rfs and debate it.
So what do you think according to most of the rfsers people think the whole of werma sadhana and the scorpion seal retreat should be open to everyone without an exception but here the Sakyong discusses other traditions ‘enriching’ our tradition to a certain point with teachings formerly given by CTR to people as a whole.
Actually I am not even sure that all these great traditions would even contemplate enriching the shambhala tradition may be that is a thought too far. You would have to consult with them about what they wanted to do first, you would have to have dialogues with them about the whole thing. Perhaps these traditions dont want in any way to be connected to shambhala but merely want to explore the meditative disciplines in a spirit of mutual enquiry. I just dont know about that.
So yes thats why I think I mentioned people doing their own thing with the shambhala teachings if they did indeed receive them up to WA.
And actually I think thats not too bad of an idea for people to contemplate especially now that senior teachers are indeed exploring shamanism, Shinto and Art and yes in addition perhaps we have no choice in the matter now as Shambhalian Buddhism has indeed closed down on the great ‘us’ out there doing ‘advanced’ practices.
Yes I do hope we can put up that letter and debate it that would be good and quite interesting.
Its still sunny in the UK!
Best
Rita Ashworth
(Aside –just checked post on Mr Perks table re teachings and got a post from Edz which is interesting-not replied there because I did not want to take up Mr Perks table but Edz has mentioned some good stuff re shambhala so thought I would put my reply to Edz here. James you might want to check Edz’s post)
Dear Edz
Thanks for your post.
I had not realised how close people were reading my posts, especially James on the main thread, so I have had to backtrack and re-evaluate what I said and actually when I have investigated a bit further re the letter to the sangha in 2000 by the Sakyong come back to James with some other perspectives on the whole thing. Yes although I have not been a 100 per cent ‘factually’ right in my quotes I have indeed raised some other points about SB that do need to be considered.
I have been thinking about James post and actually it is quite timely also because perhaps we do need to re-evaluate that letter to people by the Sakyong as it seems the most concrete piece of writing that we have on his thinking. There is a definite departure from the way that the Vidyadhara gave the teachings about shambhala exemplified in that letter particularly resting on the quote given by the Sakyong by his father as stating that the shambhala terma came from the “Rigden kings and Mr.Gesar” so to the Sakyong (aside Gesar also being a manifestation of Padmasambhava as the Sakyong explains) this is the functional basis of SB.
However I think there are some problems with that explanation by the Sakyong-how could one possibly know of the spiritual experiences of another person what the Vidyadhara actually experienced in his connection with the Rigden principle/Gesar and from that supposition say that that experience leads to SB. The root of the shambhala teachings could come from Padmasambhava but may be indeed Padmasambhava wanted the shambhala teachings to be available for everyone-that I believe is anyones guess –perhaps the answer to that is lost in the midst of times. Yes indeed Padmasambhava may have planted those teachings so that everyone could have access to them.
Now as to Shambhala Jews, Christians etc and ‘so forth’ as the Sakyong states being welcome in SI I cant see why people would want to be in an organisation that limits you as to teachings what would indeed be the point of that, surely you would take a hike, take what you had learned and go out into the world and really start thinking about these shambhala teachings in depth. Is not this what St Paul did when he opened up the teachings of Christ to gentiles, or take it more up to date the ‘reformist’ movements in Islam such as Sufism and Bahai (can you have reformism in Islam not sure about that perhaps I am mixing religions there a bit would welcome discussion on that). No as I see it religion, art, even secularism develops through an historical process-you can not indeed fix things in a static mode. So the Rigden King principle –how will it manifest in the future? Debateable I really do think.
Thanks also Edz for the reference to Kallon Basquin and
and his use of the shambhala teachings in a non-denominational setting – I will check him out. Yes I am also aware of what Ojai is doing with the shambhala teachings with Shambhala Education -is there any one else in the states that is doing similar stuff and that might have tenuous links with SI -would like to hear about them if there is.
I take your point about theatre but the media in all its forms is endemic in our civilisation and is a useful space to explore the shambhala teachings in depth I believe.
Will be back at work tomorrow so my posts might lessen -good some people might say stateside!
Well best from the UK
Rita
Dear All
70!(had to pass 69!)
Yes well I think somethings up in SI – I have just read three articles on terma on the Times.
What is happening? Are ‘we’ trying to be a little too definitive about terma?
To me personally in this present epoch I really do not know what is going to happen with terma now that the shambhala teachings are in the world – I would not bet on all the coming terma being solely from a Shambhalian Buddhist source. Why? Well the Cosmic Mirror principle and the vastness of that vision and the ripening karma of individuals both in the west and east, but for me particularly in the west because of the speediness of life here.
I would bet that the principle of revelation will become more frequent as religious and secular traditions start talking to each other and begin again to start exploring the meditative disciplines. So I would think that terma would be passed down now in more unconventional ways than was done in the past. So the Tibetan tradition hanging on to its forms of passing on terma etc might not happen so much in the future primarily because so many people in the world are turning away from materialism to what shall we call it a ‘spiritual’ life. You may get people experiencing more ‘daknang’ experiences which I believe are termed ‘pure visions’ in the article by Ms Gayley.
Another dimension to consider also in relation to terma is indeed if terma discoverers have already been born in the west – that could be a possibility of why CTR wanted the whole path to be open to people. I think it is feasible if we are talking in almost ethereal terms about primordial Buddhas as dispensing terma to consider logically that other people in this heavily populated world will begin to start manifesting terma if meditation becomes widespread. So terma could via ones inherent karma come from other religious and secular traditions.
Of course your everyday bod would say hoot to this because he/she believes in the validity of the sense-operated world, but of course even western philosophy has disputed that the senses can not provide universal meaning in connection to such things as love and faith. Yes, faith ‘developed’ from practice which is beyond doubtlessness could cast wider the net for receiving terma than Tibet, SI and our somewhat limited conceptions of Shambhala.
So yes I should not close the door on further terma appearing in the west to many people just because of historical and scholarly precedence in Tibet itself. And indeed logically also if western science also is now talking of multi-layered universes too in a technical sense why would indeed the teachings be limited to a Tibetan ideal of reality aswell.
So what is indeed up? Is SI printing these articles to raise questions about terma or to close questions down about how terma could be revealed. Myself I feel the articles are a bit too ‘on message’ in the sense of providing the practitioner with a set stock of answers to the terma concept.
What do other people think?
Its still very hot in GB!
Best
Rita Ashworth
This is exhausting at some point, or maybe because it’s Summer and I have big garden, but I did want to say that I think it’s a mistake to define what’s being discussed as simply whether Shambhala teachings are accessible to all.
Within vajrayana one can’t get around the need for a realized master to whom one commits and who has actually realized the path. Without that there is no vajrayana.
I think there is still lots to discuss about how or why the conflation of Shambhala teachings and Buddhism limits openness or accessibility, or how access to higher teachings would be available only to Buddhists (as would higher offices, conflating religion and politics) but this thread is more about gathering support to petition for Trungpa Rinpoche’s stream of teachings, so I suspect politics will be better done on the new thread “Monarchy and Power in Shambhala”. In any case, one can’t circumvent the need to make a commitment to a master; a more democratic political system will not mitigate that one iota, has nothing to do with that in practical terms.
The overlying issue, rather than how open or closed Shambhala International is, is that not only the stream of teachings, but the entire culture created by many under guidance from Trungpa Rinpoche, which had the Buddhist Kagyu/Nyingma path at its heart, has been intentionally morphed by central decree into something quite different in significant ways, leaving many of Trungpa Rinpoche’s students (we’re not dead yet) wondering where they are.
People who claim this kind of change was occurring all the time are mistaken. If that were true lineage would be a hoax and culture a tabula rasa.
A contributor in a Shambhala site pointed out that when Trungpa Rinpoche introduced new practices like tonglen, Kyudo, Ikebana, Elocution, or the Shambhala teachings altogether, he never usurped what went before. He didn’t demand even implicitly that one should drop what one was doing to pick up the next new thing, as if we were children attracted to shiny objects or codependent adults in a group celebrating ADD; drop Buddhism to enter Shambhala, quit Kyudo to do Ikebana, forget about past vows to take new ones, etc..
From this point of view he didn’t actually change anything as much as enriching the community’s culture.
I understand the official ‘correctness’ of writing to Adam, but again ask what could he possibly do, other than tweak a curriculum he has been ordered to put together in something like its current form? Any practical suggestions.
No change in curriculum, or more scheduled shrine room time, etc. will bring about the support needed, without a realized and engaged vajra master. Find someone like that, and then petition SMR. The only name I come up with would be the Dorje Loppon, but perhaps there are a couple of other names. Get someone of that caliber on board, work the proper channels, and you might have the groundswell needed to get the PTB to even notice we are here.
Dear James
Thanks for your further comments about the paths of Vajrayana and Shambhala which I am both on, for to me still they are separate paths.
I do take your point of the need for a vajrayana master and within SI and without of SI ‘we’ have a number of choices, they are of course the Dorje Loppon, Patrick Sweeny and now I think we could perhaps say Ray.
However Andrew Safer does indeed state that ‘we’ should not go outside of SI to other Tibetan teachers for guidance so other Tibetan teachers might be possibly outside of our choices for the vajrayana path in endeavouring to keep alive CTR’s conception of the teachings.
Me personally I dont think that – I would be willing to see HHDKR as an adviser to CTRs students as his previous incarnation was always involved with Vajradhatu in the past. Of course some people will disagree with my opinions entirely and state that ‘we’ need more people like Ray just doing stuff and waiting for confirmation from the kagyu lineage later which Ray might possibly get soon.
So the idea of ‘petitioning’ SI for a vajra master is one idea amongst many that are floating out there I think.
Re the shambhala teachings if we are thinking of them as a container for the Vajrayana teachings ‘we’ the people outside of SI have to keep them going aswell in the original form so I dont see this as a side issue and I do see the complete accessibility for them to people as matter of great importance that can not be underestimated in the present age. So ‘we’ really do have to discuss this more.
Re the terma stuff on the Times – I wonder about these articles – I think we need to have wider discussions about terma in the western context aswell and should not just leave it up to SI scholars to define the whole conversation about terma. Its too definitive for the present age and all the social upheavals that are happening.
Yes I dont know what will happen eventually with the whole of CTR’s legacy –but what I do ‘see’ and know about now in relation to his teachings is that small study groups are beginning to form steadily and programmes are being put on and I am indeed engaged in this myself. So outside of the ‘petitioning’ process itself people are making moves to preserve the ‘older’ format but I myself would not see it as older but a maturing process of what we have been given in the past. What these small moves will morph into I dont know-its just that old grassroots network working again and to me that is the essence of community and teachings forming in society –the communism, democracy aspect of the Triad so if the Monarch is outside of that now that will have to be the case for the time being, till the inevitable ‘something’ occurs.
Well best for now – I think we should keep on this thread, there are other issues on Damchos thread that are being discussed and I really would like to focus more on Trungpa and what he said about the promulgation of the teachings than the Sakyong’s path now laid out in SI.
Best
Rita Ashworth
If you look at the founders of the Kagyu lineage and read about their dharma
journeys, you know what tremendous training and hardship they went through in the process. Also, they were recognized as Vajra Masters. If you look at the Vidyadhara’s life, his process was similar…in spite of his title
and training, he still had to prove himself when he came to the USA. It was 4 years after VCTR came to the States, (something like, what, 8 after he went to England?) on the occasion of the 15th Karmapa’s first visit, that he was given the title of Vidyadhara. Before that, as we have heard, many Tibetians thought he was a renegade. I leave it to you to compare these stories with SMR’s own story. Suffice it to say, any great lama has yet to declare SMR a Vidyadhara….not that that’s a problem…he has to prove himself like they all had to.
Does he need anyone’s approval? It seems that VCTR went to great lengths to show the 15th Karmapa how he was bringing buddhism to the
West…..so that’s also a question to contemplate.
If you look at all the older students….the ones who are SMR’s acharyas,
the teachers that have struck out on their own…and the rest of us, to my mind, only Pema sticks out as one who teaches in the spirit of the Vidyadhara, as well as she is able to connect with a large number of people on a very basic level. Does that mean the rest of us are failures?
Is anyone doing a 12 year retreat? We can speculate ad nauseum about
what’s happening with SI…if there is a problem, perhaps we need to look in the mirror…(I include myself).
John, this isn’t, for myself, about discussing ad nausolium, what’s happening in SI, and this thread is certainly not as well. It is about trying to find a way to continue the stream of Trungpa Rinpoche’s teachings within Shambhala.
Rita suggested it can happen elsewhere but the simple truth is SMR and/or Lady Diane own Trungpa Rinpoche’s teachings and archives. Some of the new legal entities have cinched that ownership up. Anyone outside of Shambhala will probably not be given access. So in some sense it has to happen within the boundaries of Shambhala.
The so called changes are such, at this point, that they are simply not the same thing many of Trungpa Rinpoche’s students got themselves involved in. I don’t mean politically or how the community is organized and lead. I don’t think that implies in any way that all those people misunderstood Trungpa Rinpoche.
That amount of change ensures that there will be little or no continuity of lineage from generation to generation. Some have speculated whether that is not the idea.
I am glad and heartened to see that there is some kind of effort to reawaken the concerns and directions that Trungpa Rinpoche himself expressed again and again and yet again in his seminal teachings on spiritual materialism, and the transcendental/practical quality, i.e. apolitical qualities, of genuine dharma.
In the inspiration that one shouldn’t be joining a political movement meant to save the world when entering the Shambhala mandala or any genuine spiritual path.
I understand what you’re saying, James, and I agree with you. I believe the point that Ash makes about there needing to be some one(s) to take charge and lead any group that wants to pursue the Vidyadhara’s stream of teachings is well made. The only person who could appoint such people is SMR, and I think the chances of that are minimal. Under the Vajradhatu/Shambhala umbrella, in the past, the Vidyadhara’s students taught not only Shambhala, but also Vajrayana classes, as you know. The Vidyadhara trusted and encouraged his students to do this….for others as well as part of their training. Not so now. Even the acharyas seem limited as to how free they are to teach outside the party line.
There is only one Chief of Shambhala, and the rest are indians. VCTR could handle the chaos of giving people responsibility and dealing with it whether people sank or swam. It seems that SMR can’t, which is not to say that there is something wrong with him. It seems he needs the rigid structure just to keep things together. Any initiative from the outside seems
to have no way to get approval. Unless one of VCTR’s students happens to
become realized and is acknowledged by other lineage holders, it seems as if there is no available leadership.