The Blue Sangha
May 21, 2010 by Kevin Lyons 
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One out of every six people will suffer from a mental illness in their lifetimes, making it virtually impossible to go through life without knowing someone, a parent, a spouse, a child, a friend, a fellow worker or an acquaintance who will struggle from one of these afflictions. Unlike other illness such as Cancer or Heart Disease, the stigma of mental illness isolates those who most need to be included by society, to be bolstered by compassion and understanding and not to be made into an object of fear.
It would be comforting to think that practitioners, due to their years of meditation practice were somehow immune from Mental Illness. However, we have seen where this type of thinking leads and the consequences it incurs.
In the past the Sapashana group was very affective in helping practitioners get sober and remain that way. The purpose of The Blue Sangha is to facilitate a conversation and get practitioners, anonymously if they wish, to start talking about their struggles with Mental Illness whether it is Depression or Bi-Polar. If it’s in the DSM-4, you’re welcome here.
I have no idea if anyone will come and sit at this table but, that isn’t important. What is important is that a conversation has begun, a one sided conversation so far but, I hope that we can change that.
Love, Lhagthong Norbu / Kevin Lyons
Hi Kevin,
Thanks for starting this conversation, if it becomes one between more than two. Yes, I remember Sapashana (pronounced Sharpashana?). I never availed myself of it, though I’ve had my dark nights of the soul. What is your background? Are you a mental health practitioner, or someone who was helped by Sapashana?
The thing that concerns me at this time is what is called by some people (C.G, Jung, for example) “collective psychosis,” That is, how to remain sane in the midst of a society that is insane. At the global level, we have addictions of many kinds – addictions to ‘progress,’ to oil, to consumerism, to money, to greed, to economic and population growth, etc. – so that the dominant civilization (of which we are part) is a cancer on the planet. We have leaders who are apparently incapable of ‘thinking outside the box,’ and thus continue to choose the same old habitual patterns that continue to make things worse. As we know, one definition of insanity is repeating the same actions and expecting a different result. But the result of the current societal paradigm is that humanity faces mounting crises that are spiraling out of control: economic, environmental and political.
Many people are writing about the disconnection from reality in our society, the inability to relate with facts and evidence, or to accept the truth, and the prevalence of irrationality and illiteracy. We have dangerous demagogues arising, such as Sarah Palin and Rand Paul, whose logic is utterly twisted and absurd but who gather hoards of supporters. As my husband says, we’re seeing “airheads” bubbling up everywhere.
My study for the last few decades has been the human disconnection from nature and the environmental crises that result from that. The current disaster in the Gulf of Mexico should sober us all up. Our civilization’s lost connection with the sacred dimension of the natural world, which dates back many millennia, leads us to destroy our own habitat. That’s the fundamental insanity of our society, the root of our collective psychosis and of the addictive /obsessive-compulsive/irrational behaviors that are proliferating around us – at least from the point of view of ecopsychology.
Once we understand that it’s our society that is insane – disconnected from reality, the Dharma – our personal problems gain context, and it becomes easier to find the courage to leave the herd and seek our own sanity in the dharma. Our personal problems are not our own, they are planetary and they are inherited. That perspective can enable us to practice comprehensive compassion for ourselves and others , and to respond sanely to the turbulence and insecurity in the world.
With love,
Suzanne
Thank you Suzanne, for so articulately and quickly addressing this group insanity dimension.. I think that that is the crux of the matter. We live in a time where ignoring the shadow side of the group dimension has reached frightening proportions and allows all forms of charlatans , narcissistic megalomaniacs, and self-appointed gurus, to prey on people’s fears and herd mentality. Since Radio Free Shambhala was a direct reaction to a one group’s phenomenal ignoring of the “dark side,” and repressing all but the most “cheerfully mad” and madly cheerful manifestations, I would hope that the theme of group insanity, cultish behaviors and their recognition, and the refusal in these group manifestations, to “look” directly at relative reality, would remain paramount in this discussion.
Yes, a big thank you to Suzanne for a brilliant response. Joanna Macy wrote an article, “The Wings of a Bodhisattva”, in which she was saying that if, indeed, we believe in interdependence then All sentient beings are bodhisattvas. In more worldly terms, I would say the same for “Borderline Personality Disorder” or many of the other dis-es in DSM IV: Our western health care system seems to have a detached labeling approach, in part to satisfy the insurance business, the pharmaceutical business, and to avoid the necessity of going into our society ~ homes, neighborhoods, and communities ~ to do the work that needs to be done.
It seems “the darkness of mental illness” could use some light shining in from those who comfortably allow themselves a pre-judgment of an other’s experience; perhaps an enforced separation of self and other; and perhaps a stepping stone in the hierarchy we as sangha project in our individual path to enlightenment.
When we had a Sapashana group at Karme Choling, I remember Judy Robison reminding us that we All have addictions. This is an important conversation for sangha. Thank you. May it be of benefit!
Thus, nearly one-quarter of the residents at Rajneeshpuram were trained psychologists. That documented fact does nothing to increase one’s confidence in the ability of the profession to spot openly pathological behavior in contexts where its members have a vested interest. For, while most members of the Rajneesh community were not aware of the more grossly illegal activities going on there until after the fact, Sheela’s own “duchy” included suppression of any “negativity.” In her world, further, even constructive criticism qualified as that, and was punished accordingly. Of course, all that one gets out of that, other than an enforced obedience, is a superficially “happy” community of people—as in the Maharishi’s ideal society—reminding one too much of the Python sketch involving an unhappy man sentenced to hang by the neck (or meditate) “until he cheers up.”
Kevin:
I, too, am glad you started this conversation.
I believe there are two reasons why people who are dealing with (or have dealt with) mental illness would be reluctant to post here:
- There’s still a huge amount of stigma. I think mental illness is the last taboo in our society.
- Even if someone has gotten beyond the stigma obstacle, let’s keep in mind that anything posted on a public-access web site is basically in the public domain from that point on, and we have no idea who is going to see that information–both now and in the future.
I work as a public defender. Most of my contact with humans who are dealing with mental health difficulties is in that arena of criminal justice. However, the subject has concerned me as it might appear in Buddhist study and practice. I hope this interchange is vigorous.
I’d just like to continue the thread of Suzanne’s offering of nature ~ our connection, our disconnection and our direct experience with the earth.
I have spent the past four and a half years among the traumatized, marginalized, and categorized residents of Vermont’s largest city. Homeless war vets; homeless and hopeless children grown out of foster care; raped and battered adults; survivors of early childhood trauma; kids whose whole lives center around scoring pain pills; this list goes on and on…and I find myself astounded by the inhumanity of our approach to care. We are placing the onus of society’s sickness on those who are most in need of nurture. We are tossing our wounded onto concrete sidewalks and there are no Maitri Space Awareness rooms, no relief of digging in a garden, no floating on the water, no silence of a breeze in pine trees….no message of the need or a worthiness to partake of the earth’s gifts and support and non-judgmental embrace. To come alive!
It seems this spring there have been a great number of environmental atrocities: and yes, how we treat the earth seems to be a reflection of our humanity.
With love,
Steph
Hi Suzanne. To answer your question, I am not a Mental Health professional. My interest in this subject began when a member of my family started living with a Mental Illness. My wife and I became active in a mental health oversight board of the Massachusetts Department of Mental Health and with our board created a website http://www.mentalhelpinfo.org.
I share your concern about the mental health of the general public. The road rage, the in your face one-gunmanship and the reality TV culture that makes it a virtue to belittle other people., it’s not just bad, it’s BORING.
I think that all anyone can do who is a practitioner is to try to create a island of sanity through our practice and the wonderful teachings that we have received. I hope the answer is somewhere between giving up hope and drinking the cool aid with everyone around you.
Kevin,
I was really interested in your attempt to work with this issue. Yet…I agree whole heartedly with Andrew about the obstacle of stigma.
and also….There has been so much on this site that is (justifiably,) of RANT in nature…on and on. It is all so painful, and the articulate and well spoken spokespeople and research artists have contributed invaluable insights into the situation for me and others..
However, I have somehow tired of the fundamental topic, although it will always give me a heart thumping wallop whenever anything like it comes up. I’ve stopped reading the site at this point, too busy trying to get things done, I suppose…to really follow all the interesting trains of thought that have appeared in addition to the original rants..
I was interested in your idea…yet all the opening comments all seemed to turn your original idea of a coffee table chat about mental illness into something else, that go along with “the rant approach.” (the “rant coffee table,” I guess, and there is always a place for that..)
Meanwhile, it is a valuable topic, and I agree that many practitioners DO suffer from various forms of mental illness, “mental illness lite” or “mental illness not so lite.” “IT” runs in my family, it runs in me, and I feel that it is an ongoing practice in everyday life issue for me. I would be terrified to discus it on a forum like this one.
Also, it is too easy to get separated from a practice VIEW. ….a slippery slope of “discussing MY mental illness.” I would love to see the topic done well.
Earlier in the Sangha there was a warning against psychotherapy, and yet over the years it seemed to develop into a more dharmic approach. Thus, years ago in Naropa Institute, my therapist Virginia Hiliker would say, “What was the first thing your thought before you did such and such?” i.e. Examine your mind carefully!!
Thank you and good luck!
Ginny
What is the point of a “poison eater” if the peacock has no poison to work with?
Andrew and Ginny. I understand what you said about stigma but, stigma is a problem with education and although it may never be eradicated, by shining a light on the problem, hearts and minds can be changed.
I never thought I would see a time when anti smoking campaigns would make such a cut in the number of people who smoke but, it happened. Change like this only takes place over a long period of time.
Kevin,
I’m not sure what you mean about the smoking adds stopping smoking, and mental illness stigma. (I know I can be dense at times.)
In any case, I’m not that concerned really. We are caricatures of ourselves anyway, so it is probably not much of a secret to our friends and acquaintances. (Yet there is a line beyond which, we don’t want people to know, like if you get Alzheimers or semthing. better to hide it, or people won’t want to do business with you..)
Some mental illnesses have even been described as “sexy.” or romantic, or even appealing..in a symbolic sense… (A good friend of mine claims she is “autistic.” and proud of it!!) …rather than the image of a tormented soul, which I tend to conjure up out of experience with myself and others.
However, I like what Stephanie just said about the “poison eaters.” I have recently been feeling very happy: After all these years, carefully re- reading the famous chapter “The manure of experience and the field of Bodhi” by CTR, and it FINALLY makes sense!!! It is perfect for understanding how practice could help with mental illness…..
(so I may be a slow learner, but at least we have this oopportunity!!!)
totally awesome. My take is that: that chapter is a brilliant discussion of working with our poison in the path of accumulation all the way up to some sort of “real thing wakefulness..” intuition and inspiration becoming wisdom..
I REALLY like that our comments aren’t posted in the comments section.
Ginny
Stephanie,
I just wanted to say that I liked what you wrote earlier, about the issue of our disconnectedness with the earth and with those who need our care. I didn’t think it was a rant, just a very poignant and well written observation. It is so easy to forget what is happening on a global scale with the global warming situation, the seeming ignoring of it on a large scale, and the vast multitudes of people, suffering from war, poverty, natural disasters, whatever..
I wonder if there is a massive cultural direction of self centeredness and lack of awareness that is out of control… or if there is actually more hope after all. Al Gore said, in his movie about the global warming, that he felt saddened that no one seemed to be changing yet after all his work to point out the problems.
When I listen to NPR, for example, I hear of people who dedicate their lives to work constantly to help those suffering as you mentioned in an organic and sensitive way, as well as those fighting for the environment, but It seems to me that the tide is going in another direction. Really sad.
It is horrific and frightening to really think about.
In that vein, What a strange and challenging world the 17th Karmapa was born into!!!.
Ginny
Ginny,
Thank you (!) for writing:
“There has been so much on this site that is (justifiably,) of RANT in nature…on and on. It is all so painful, and the articulate and well spoken spokespeople and research artists have contributed invaluable insights into the situation for me and others..
However, I have somehow tired of the fundamental topic, although it will always give me a heart thumping wallop whenever anything like it comes up. I’ve stopped reading the site at this point, too busy trying to get things done, I suppose…to really follow all the interesting trains of thought that have appeared in addition to the original rants.”
Ginny, I always appreciate your frankness. I too am thoroughly tired of the ranting on RFS, even though much of it is articulate, etc. etc. By the way, although I don’t subscribe to sangha-talk and sadhaka-talk, my husband sends me a few e-mails from both, and — guess what? — there is plenty of ranting on those two sites as well.
Maybe it’s the nature of our sangha. Or to put it more broadly, maybe it’s just plain old human nature. Whatever it is, and as one of the three people who make RFS happen (Mark S is the main “hero”), I can plainly state that it’s a big issue for us. The three of us will be meeting today to talk about what to do.
There is far too much of a small number of people posting over and over, and often at great length. I know that others are reading RFS, but I don’t know how many. At this point the “talkers” (those who post) are fairly few in number. They mainly talk to each other, and the site has become a sort of in-group conversation. Conversation is fine; it’s a big part of what RFS is about, but this is more like a salon — a closed loop.
I am gasping for breath … Fresh air, someone, please!
I hope that Ginny’s perceptive comment, and my expanding on it, will inspire others to jump in. I think we are in danger of becoming irrelevant.
I realize that this sounds negative; I really care about RFS and the issues it deals with, and I don’t want it to become just an in-group talking among themselves.
We need concrete ideas about what we can do to change this “culture.”
Barbara
Well, it certainly shuts down conversation to take the position that everyone who disagrees with you is insane!
RFS has become irrelevant — with the main contributors here unwilling to entertain any contrary views.
It is a shame, because there is a lot that could be explored. I am currently teaching a course on the Sakyong’s seminar “Enlightened World” and I have been struck with the different emphasis that the Sakyong places on contemplative or analytical meditation from VCTR’s approach. The Sakyong’s approach is certainly traditional; it is the approach taken by Khenpo Tsultrim Gyamtso as well. However, VCTR had a fundamentally different approach in teaching vipashyana and restricted his discussion of analytical meditation to teachings on lojong and tonglen practice.
Maybe the problem is that RFS was started as a forum that was “outside the tent” based on a belief that differing views could not be expressed within the Shambhala community. Once you take that position — which is pretty insulting to students who remain in the Shambhala community, there is very little to talk about. If you really want to have a conversation, I suggest changing the name of the website — and, more importantly, taking a more open minded attitude.
I apologize for a post that is off topic for this Cafe table.
Ginny and Barbara, I agree that the rants are tiring and a turn off. (I hope you don’t see my posts as rants!) But I really don’t think it is ‘just human nature.’ I think it is the nature of this time of profound and rapid change. It is part of the zeitgeist in which everything is getting shaken up and former expectations are being dashed. So there is an underlying (and justifiable) anxiety and insecurity, which is probably unconscious for many people, but expresses itself in polarization, debate, and rants. It’s all over the place if you read or watch the international news. It’s also all over the place in cyberspace if you read the comments in both alternative and mainstream media. It’s one of the danger signs of collective psychosis. People attach themselves to demagogues when collective anxiety increases.
I’ve been studying the nature of ‘paradigm change’ for decades, and we’re in a big one right now, exacerbated by many factors, such as overpopulation, resource and energy depletion, climate and ecological crises, natural disasters, etc. I find it amazing that people in our sangha seem to look no further than the situation in the sangha, and so they don’t see that our sangha is a microcosm of the larger situation in the world and particularly of Western civilization.
By the way, studying this stuff – deep ecology, paradigm change, ecopsychology, history, etc. – is how I came to terms with the dysfunctional nature of my family of origin, which I came to see as simply reflecting dysfunctions in the larger culture. And it also compelled me to take refuge in the dharma.
How to change the culture in RFS? I regret to say I have no suggestions.
Best,
Suzanne
PS: Just checked my email and found this quote from Ecobuddhism.org:
Every crisis is an opportunity, and we will be presented with the greatest array of opportunities in history. Survival will require us to evolve quickly, and to change our thinking, our habits, and our expectations. If we do these things, it is just possible that the society that emerges in the process will be far more stable, interesting, and beautiful than the one we see around us today. – Richard Heinberg
Heinberg is one of my primary teachers about Peak Oil and he’s expressing what many people are saying about the changes going on in the world.
As far as the original post goes, I think there is a philosophical element that can be hard for people to navigate in their practice. We talk about journey without goal, but honestly speaking when we enter the process of practice, we expect that we will be able to learn how to manifest the qualities of warriorship in our lives. This can be hard when people deal with ingrained habitual patterns such as depression or anxiety, and I’m sure there’s a lot of frustration when we are reading that we should maintain a sense of cheerfulness or doubtlessness but the feedback we get from our minds can be so far from that state. I think it can be very disheartening for people when they feel like their state of mind is so intractable. I’ve seen shambhala seminars aimed at people who struggle with mental illness, but I think it would be helpful for there to be teachers who are willing to honestly share their experiences with mental illnesses as it relates to their practice so that people don’t feel like they’re too fucked up to be warriors. Perhaps in some ways this cuts to a very basic question: why practice? Is a wrong view to be trying to achieve some openness and sanity, and how should people feel when their habitual patterns make it even more difficult than usual to have a sense of humor about their circumstances?
For the record, I think the vidyadhara struggled with some depression issues. Obviously his relationship with his mind was much different than most of ours, and im almost tempted to think that some of the sadness he experienced in his life was a springboard for him, but we can’t all be mahasiddhas.
Thanks Ashoka for getting back to the meat and potatoes of this stream.
Quite often people who suffer from Mental Illness are boxed into a corner when they are only seen as a person with a Mental Illness and not as people with a complicated disorder to live with but with as many hopes and dreams as anyone else.You mentioned that Trungpa Rinpoche struggled with Depression. I remember something about that when I read his Diane’s story of her years as his wife. If he did suffer from Depression then it only endears him to me.
You are right when you mentioned that sometimes the teachings suggest that we should face circumstances with a certain joyous heart and if you don’t feel joyous what does it say about us I think that often there is a problem with fruition stories. We like to think that our spiritual hero’s never had a unkind thought about all the trials their Guru’s put them through. After all The path is the goal and the goal is the path. I think that in the end there is something noble about a person who suffers from Depression or Bi-polar disease and everyday they have to get up and put their game face on.
Wow! So many great posts all at once!
I’m so happy to hear that RFS is attempting to keep this site healthy and helpful for its users. Thank you Barbara for your comments. It has GOT to be a total challenge to keep this site alive and well, given its content and scope, and human nature or paradigm shifts or whatever…
I do think one issue, is not just too many rants, which we all love at times… but “now what?” and how?? and that has also been explored to a large extent, I’m sure. And there was that idea That CTR said that his sangha would continue the lineage……
I like the coffee table ideas…allowing for more ways to hang out with each other, and not having to be “for or against.” Perhaps this is an organic way to move forward…
and Suzanne, I really appreciate your posts, rants or non rants, they are just so articulate and well thought out. The changing paradigm theory has got to be an enormous issue…things are changing so fast, and there is so much at stake. It is fascinating that you have actually studied it so well. I can just barely sense that it must be there. How about a coffee table with that???
And Ashoka, I love to hear how our gurus are human. ( I just LOVE it!) and there is that inspiration and question of: how do THEY deal with being human?
And what you said about people getting discouraged if they feel their own minds are unworkable. and how to help people with that. (as a community, or as a teacher.)
Related to that, I “did” the Naropa MA contemplative Psych program in the very early 1980’s, and in every class, the material we studied was various case histories or designed to show that we ALL shared the same symptoms of the patient. It was really serious to us at the time. Like: “EEEK! I’m being (what’s his name), in his boat lost out there in the ocean, not wanting to be discovered as a fake!!” (He committed suicide, and it was a big mystery for a while.) That was a common one.
I think the goal was to give us all HEART and warmth and understanding to really share and appreciate and be able to identify with what people in hard times are going through. Professional aloofness was regarded as NOT a good way to approach a client. Likewise, we need that attitude as a community.
In Mingyur R.’s book Joy of Living, he speaks about the panic attacks that he experienced and how he worked with them during three year retreat. I found the honesty of such a prominent meditation teacher on this subject to be very inspiring.
I have also been reading Glimpses of Abhidharma recently in the Collected Works of CTR. At the end of that volume of the Collected Works are six or seven talks that CTR gave to mental health professionals. CTR tends to favor an approach of creating an environment of kindness and sanity — and feels that this resonates with a patients inate wisdom, even in cases of severe psychosis (sounds a lot like Shambhala Training, although I don’t think that meditation practice is necessarily recommended in cases of mental illness). He also has interesting things to say about mental illness being rooted in aggression.
I am so glad this conversation is continuing. It seems we are bringing in pieces of our experience and creating a collage; and the reason I so deeply took refuge with this sangha is the incredible richness.
The basic “mental illness” label seems to be tricky because it has such a definite separation element. As well, there is the sticky wicket of unhealthy boundaries as a common factor in grouping people as having “mental illness” while on the other hand there is also the element of voicelessness.
So, I was thinking perhaps it would be helpful to sometimes think in terms of “mental healthiness”, and back to the Earth element, what Nutriments we as human beings, need.
Thank you all,
Stephanie
Just a post script ~ Ginny, I definitely feel that there are more people who are aware and care about our global environment. I hear it in the arts; from my wonderfully engaged fb friends; and the worldwide connections people are making.
We have the teachings. We are so fortunate. But oh, those pesky others. For me, some days it’s all about Level II. Cheers!
I just reread all the posts so far in this group. I feel sheepish about my first comment that some of them were rants. It was merely my own projection after all!! not reading attentively enough…and just projecting my previous frustration. (typical neurotic behavior!! Thank goodness for Maitri!!)
So also, I was wrong to suggest that some of these topics should have a separate coffee table, how narrow of me. As Stephanie said, it IS like a collage, forming naturally and respectfully and tenderly. and one really can’t overly restrict a topic due to its relation with so many other forces.
And the issue of how to work with the RFS container so as to stimulate a healthy culture really is a good and hard question. It is so important to find ways to work with our minds and our RFS community, (and beyond, of course!) as well as with the original situations that prompted this site to begin with. Perhaps there is that sense of despair going on about the macrocosm and microcosm, that makes us feel powerless. (Sorry. I don’t mean to include everyone in that statement, but at least I feel that way!) I think that is a Joanna Macy concept? …. I barely remember the title of her book…”Despair and empowerment in the nuclear age,” but the essence of it has burned a whole in my heart forever.
Because we really ARE facing a horrible set of Crises.
I just wanted to ask Suzanne: “Are there were any good books you would recommend that deal with “paradigm shift” in the “modern age??” About what we are all living in NOW???
thanks… Ginny
Dear Ginny ,Try “Blessed Unrest” By Paul Hawken ,How the largest movement in the world came into being ,and why no one saw it coming…viking books 2007..
lots of love
JP
Dear Ginny,
Thanks for asking. Blessed Unrest is a good one. I am working somewhat feverishly to get my Dharmagaians website finished and launched onto the internet. It is all about paradigm change and the major changes/crises in the world, from an eco-psycho-spiritual perspective, with hundreds of links to articles, videos, movies and books (all on the internet) on 20± topics related to paradigm change. I will announce it on my Facebook page, and hopefully through RFS, when it’s up. Hopefully in a couple of months.
Best,
Suzanne
Ginny, here’s something about paradigm change that’s shorter than a book and corresponds closely with my own view:
Is the Modern Psyche Undergoing a Rite of Passage? By Richard Tarnas – We have sought ever deeper insight into our individual biographies, seeking to recover the often hidden sources of our present condition, to render conscious those unconscious forces and complexes that shape our lives. Many now recognize that same task as critical for our entire civilization. What individuals and psychologists have long been doing has now become the collective responsibility of our culture: to make the unconscious conscious.
http://www.cosmosandpsyche.com/pdf/RevisionRiteofPassage.pdf
Tarnas teaches at CIIS in San Francisco and has written two magisterial works on paradigm change – each 500 pages ±: The Passion of the Western Mind and Cosmos and Psyche. He first gave the rite-of-passage talk in the early- to mid-1990’s.
Best,
Suzanne
Dear John and Suzanne,
Thank you both!!! I will take a good look at the book, and read the article by Tarnas…
Suzanne, I am delighted that so much of your life’s work is wrapped up in this, it is so large. My Spiritual Friend told me that practicing Chakrasamvara is practicing with the entire universe in mind… and I think that really makes sense here! I try to do that in principle, but it will be interesting to get more details!!
So in a couple of months, I will look for your Magnum Opus. It sounds sort of like a “cosmic playground of the dakinis.” Meanwhile, I just hope that at least we can “pray.” (in the non theistic sense of course..)…These days are so sad. (as in the Oil spill and beyond..)
Thank goodness for the “good guys,” many of whom have been mentioned already on this forum.
love,
Ginny
Before this discussion runs out of steam, I want to thank Mark and the editors for giving The Blue Sangha .a table at the Sunshine Café. In the very near future The Blue Sangha will be a Google Group. open in the Rime tradition to everyone, but especially to Buddhists from every school who are living with a Mental Illness.
Many Thanks, Kevin
Dear All
Just a brief message after reading Suzanne’s posted essay –saw a brilliant documentary on channel 4 download called Us Now which details how technology is informing matters of governance and life in a worldwide fashion and thus creating may be a basis for a possible conception of worldwide governance.
Think this does relate to discussions about mental illness if we are seeing that also as a ‘creation’ of our bog-standard way of living life which creates alienation.
Not sure re rites in the west, not sure if we can go back to that –maybe just the coming together of people in groups will create ‘new’ rites eventually but on a worldwide basis…..yes its all very perplexing. Hope you can catch the doc – it also says stuff about the economics of the world which is good also.
Technical info that might be relevant to the financing of new initiatives re social services etc etc. check out the info on the bank mentioned in the doc –could be relevant for stuff in NS maybe -dont know if they are to things like this in Canuckland.
Suzanne hope you can mention the doc. on your website.
Best
Rita Ashworth
Thanks so much for starting this discussion. I’d be interested to see what folks have to say about living with mental illness and how they incorporate/use/work with it in their practice. I have a long history of chronic major depressive disorder. Working with that is a huge part of my practice, specifically how to be authentic without reinforcing habitual patterns or overlaying more layers of delusion to fit whatever my concepts are about warriorship… it’s a very interesting practice. I look forward to the Google group!
Hi Jacqui. It will take me a few weeks more to get the google group up and running but, you can be the first member. Thanks Kevin
I have lived with depression for most of my adult life, as has my father, my grandfather, and my great-uncle, who killed himself. Now my nephew has been diagnosed.
Living with this while being a practitioner brings one up hard against the stigma of any mental illness: if one is anything other than completely happy all the time, then one has failed to be a good whatever-you-are. It is a personal failure, and it suggests that whatever you have been doing (e.g. practicing Buddhism) does not “work” in terms of making you completely happy all the time.
Buddhists have not broken free of this, despite all of the wisdom about how mind and emotions function that is available in Buddhism and applicable to depression. I have been with sangha talk since the mid-90s and have been through several rounds of discussion of depression, usually after a sangha member has committed suicide. The question is always “How could he/she practice for X years and still commit suicide? There must have been something wrong with his/her practice.”
It reveals a subtle assumption that we make about Buddhism: that if we do it right it will fix us; we will become somebody other than who we are. The good/bad news about this is pretty clear in the teachings: it ain’t so. What we are is all we have to work with. We can’t make it something else.
This is where I feel that I have been able to be of use to other practitioners, when I have been able to overcome my own fear of the stigma. When someone asks me a question about being depressed in regard to their practice, my answer includes the fact that I have also been depressed. Something relaxes in people’s faces when I answer them that way. I think it ’s very important that we be able to come from the fullness of who we are, with no apology to the teachings for that.
I taught a Level IV once when I was in the middle of a round of out-patient treatment. I wondered if I should withdraw, but I knew that that would be a hardship for the people who ran the local program, so I stuck with it. It was a very illuminating experience. On Friday morning I was a mental patient. Friday night through Sunday I was a Shambhala Training director. Monday morning I went back to being a mental patient. There was a rich teaching for me in that, about the thin transparency of all of our labels of ourselves.
I think what I was going through made me a better teacher of Level IV, rather than disqualifiying me. But what would people have thought if I told them? Would they have lowered their estimation of the value of the teachings because I was an imperfect vessel? It’s a very large and complicated issue and I’m glad for an opportunity to discuss it. I also have to add that if I thought there was any chance of me teaching in Shambhala again, I would probably not have written the last paragraph. That is the nature of the beast.
Hello Zer-me. I was very moved by how candid you were when describing your struggle with depression. I have also tangled with this disorder starting when I was thirteen and believing that what I was experiencing
was my fault because I was weak or cursed or both. At that time I had no way to describe what was happening not even to myself . I had to suck it up because frankly, there was little help for the walking wounded and we were expected to soldier on regardless of how badly it hurt.
Before I took refuge with Chogyam Trungpa at Tail Of The Tiger, he gave a short talk about becoming a refugee. Trungpa said that Happy people don’t go searching for the Dharma. Happy people see no reason to start on the path. Of course he was speaking about the motivation to find a teacher and study the teachings. And how our unhappiness was a manifestation of our basic sanity. And how this basic sanity is and was the dissatisfaction that, that could not be ignored. The dissatisfaction which turned into our paths. Our lifelong journeys.
Perhaps the best thing that can happen to those who suffer from a disorder such as Depression is that they discover that there are other people out there who practice and work and laugh even with Depression.
Years ago I knew someone who died in a questionable accident and I often wondered how isolated and alone people are who take their own lives and how a suicide is a disturbing ripple through time that leaves those left behind in possible peril. Suicide begets and begets. I have always found that thinking about the preciousness of human birth puts many emotions in perspective. The four reminders have always been a good guide.
Joyful to have such a human birth.
Difficult to find free and well favored
But, death is real, comes without warning.
This body will be a corpse.
Unalterable are the laws of Karma.
Cause and effect cannot be escaped.
Samsara is an ocean of suffering.
Unendurable, unbearably intense.
Still questioning the healthy boundaries issue; as well, the many reminders I received while living at KCL around not sharing our practice with others ~ that it diminishes it.
I’ve been on a long bike tour soaking up, dancing with, the lush, the many, shades of green in VT. Am so grateful that I have had the opportunity to “do” the maitri rooms ~ along with a Judy Lief guided tour of now we are dead ~ This was the gateway to freeing myself of accumulated labeling in our health care system, a non-judgmental listener and accommodating space, and liberation from the hell of separation of self and other.
Ah hell. I’m going to qualify. I “have” PTSD. It was totally debilitating.
Hi Stephanie,
Thanks for disclosing. I had PTSD, which brought on a ‘dark night of the soul,” at least in my own case. As I imagine you know, PTSD is quite contagious, unlike some other “disorders.” I got it by being traumatized by someone who had it. I was repeatedly irrationally attacked – verbally and physically – by the person in whose house I lived. That’s the way it works – the traumatized traumatize others, unless the traumatized recognize the symptoms and come to an understanding of what’s really going on. In my case, this more recent episode helped me to understand the PTSD in my family of origin, and it also provoked me to investigate why PTSD is rampant in Euro-American culture. You know – the gun mania in the US, for example, not to mention alcoholism and other addictions. But the setting of healthy boundaries, as you mention, was a key to my climbing out of the hole that PTSD put me in, as well as stopping the attacks. Of course, years of meditation and warrior training played a big part too.
I’m glad you’ve had a chance to do a long bike tour, soaking up the lush green of Vermont. I remember the spring in Vermont very well – how the green just explodes suddenly after the long, deep freeze of winter. Nature is our best teacher. Trungpa Rinpoche once appeared to me in a dream a year after he died, and said, “I am the same as Nature. There is absolutely no difference.” I’ll never forget that dream! It gave me ultimate permission to follow my Nature-loving path.
Best,
Suzanne
Thank you, Suzanne. When I was very little (3yrs.) and trying to escape what was going on with the people in my life, I learned that if I walked outside into the fields and forest behind our house and continued to walk I would arrive at a freedom from the messages at home and into a totally welcoming and accepting embrace and the feeling of belonging. Of all the symptoms I have manifested, the triggers and the struggles, never have these things occured when it is just my naked mind and nature. Never. Ever.
To me, this really seems to “beg the question” about the nature of what is being capitalized (?) as Mental Illness. Throughout this conversation, in particular when the word stigma appears, I keep looking for good old fashioned dharma talk about how to recognize when we are projecting our neuroses onto others, taking responsibility, etc. We ALL do it. I have yet to meet anyone who doesn’t have a little bit of that.
Thanks all,
Stephanie
I have problems with any approach that tries to ‘therapize’ the mental illness of society. I suspect some people think Shambhala Buddhism is meant to do that, but… how? No overarching vision thingies, I mean how could it actually DO that?
I’ve had some discussions before and amicably (I hope) disagree. I think it’s a chimera which puts the problem on a level at which it isn’t really workable. If we don’t know how the individual mind works, assumptions about the vastly more complex interaction of society is highly questionable. Not that any observations are wrong as such, just unavoidably biased and almost certainly missing key elements.
If society is sick, it’s because of individuals in it, which Suzanne recognizes with her suggestion for some sort of disconnect with the cultural trance in order to regain health. This is also something we hear in dharma, the need to cut oneself off from the universal unconsciousness. It’s just that… any other cultural trance will develop the same or other inbred problems based on individual responses, not on a social structure that prevents or encourages cultural trance.
(I also believe many mental health problems are caused by a feeling of disconnection. Regardless if to something healthy or not people have a need to belong, so even if disengaging does lead to a higher truth, it may be something to pursue down the road. The same can be said about retreat practice.)
As far as I can see, the only thing for it is an individual approach. And one of the reasons we are in such a quandary about that, is that psychology is still so woefully primitive while pretending to already know everything. Virtually all models I’ve come across try to be an explanation of how the mind works, but are nothing of the sort. More like holding up a wrench and using that to describe how all tools in the world work.
Most models of mind and certainly diseases thereof, are fairly accurate and sometimes highly detailed descriptions of symptoms, but then with wildly varying assumptions, from mystical to purely materialistic, about the causes for those symptoms, out of which methods are developed to fix whatever the perceived problem, from lobotomies, electric shock, all kinds of chemical experiments on down to therapeutic approaches, like rebirthing, behavioral modification, positive affirmations, rolfing, etc. The successes of these approaches are very spotty, sometimes well below what any respectable placebo accomplishes, in terms of long term success.
Dharma, certainly shamatha, seems to offer a solution that is more about getting out of our own way and letting our basic intelligence or health, our basic goodness, find the sanity we need, (if society doesn’t get in our way) rather than trying to meddle directly with something we don’t really understand, like opening the hood of a car to fix it when we don’t even know what a spark plug is, (so it looks like we’re trying to do something but… )
Whatever happened with the Windhorse project and Ed Podvoll?
James
Funny you mentioned that.
A few months ago, I was listening to a local late night radio show, and a women was describing ing graphic details about Scientology. She whent out of her way to say Naropa Institute Wind Horse project help her from going nuts.
.
In 1994, I was with a friend in Khatmandu, and he gave me some bad news that freaked me out about a personal situation I had. He said “Why do you looked so freaked out?”. I then looked at a burning garbage dump across the street. It made me really depressed. I went into a blank stare. I went to Thrangu Rinpoche the next day, and said looking at the burning garbage… and he said “And you felt depressed.”
I said yes.
“
This is a great discussion and I would love to see it continue.
I’ve been thinking that we we really haven’t defined Blue, or Sangha either for that matter.
Also on my mind has been wondering if anyone else thinks this conversation is relevant in regard to the messages our MIs and Teachers send out.
Summer is here! A great opportunity to see how we’re doing with taking care of ourselves.
Steph
Hi Stephanie,
there has been a pretty wide range of nessages about depression from teachers and MIs over the years. Could you give some examples of messages you have received or heard being given to others?
I don’t know who made up the name “Blue Sangha.” Maybe that person could say what he or she intended? I see blue as having all the meanings that radiate out from the notion of “the blues,” and sangha meaning Buddhist and/or Shambhala practitioners. This can be (and already is) a discussion of how we work with depression and other issues of “mental health” as practitioners, and maybe more broadly how we work with painful emotions.
I was close friends to a founder of Sapashana and we talked often about the causes of addiction and denial, as well as obstacles encountered within Vajradhatu putting together something about NOT drinking in the midst of Trungpa Rinpoche’s sangha. He himself was encouraging, but accusations regarding samaya corruption and such from other quarters were not unusual.
Sapashana went in and out of existence, but when I was in need there were still a few twelve step groups meeting.
What I discovered there was an honesty I didn’t know I had been missing. With all the talk of genuineness, openness, directness and truth, I was surprised to find it, like a breath of fresh air, there. Maybe it wasn’t honesty as such, (that’s a hall of mirrors) but rather a context in which denial had no ground purpose or advantage, where it could not become viral.
I don’t mean to imply everyone was alcoholic by any means, but I believe the resistance to seeing alcoholism then might be related to how mental health issues within Shambhala are perceived or acknowledged (or denied). On this level it is a spiritual problem.
Of course mental health is mentioned at every MI program, but that’s implicitly about new people who know almost nothing about meditation, and the only message I got was: we are not therapists/ draw the boundary clearly/ and be careful out there. When it comes to anyone who is already a member or an official, the dynamic is quite different. The ability to recognize and respond appropriately to mental illness on that level in my experience falls sharply off, as if mental illness cannot exist there, and if you perceive it, that is a reflection of your own neurosis.
I have encountered appointed Shambhala officials who I am certain had some kind of disorder. I don’t mean unenlightened, arrogant or neurotic. My guess in a couple of encounters is Border Line Personality disorder: pathological dishonesty, manipulative behavior moving into very destructive behavior.
It is interesting that Stephanie Potter mentioned BPD. I’ve come to believe, and have come across some professional confirmation, that people with BPD are for a couple of reasons attracted to spiritual groups. If so and such people attain positions of responsibility, they can do considerable damage.
I’m bringing up denial because I drew again and again a blank trying to get responsible parties in Shambhala to be, well, responsible. For all intents and purposes mental health problems and the results thereof, unless someone is actually non-functional or are starting to create bad press, is not acknowledged within the Shambhala administration.
To work with alcoholism, addiction or any form of mental health problem which likely have roots in a spiritual problem, to work with the world directly as higher teachings suggest, maybe the first hurdle before that’s even a shape on the horizon, is to cut through denial. Isn’t that what the first noble truth is about on some inner or secret level?
In the inspiration that giving denial no ground or value, is significantly different than ignoring it.
Good Morning!
To briefly respond to Zirme and James, I’d like to tell the story about how I came to this sangha.
In trying to “treat” my trauma (diagnostic symptoms), the medical profession tried a lot of anti-depressant and anti-anxiety medications. Whatever feeling like my self feels like, medications sure felt worse. One day as I found myself walking into the line of traffic I went to the emergency room to discuss what was happening and the doctor, after looking at my history said: “Look. You’ve tried just about every drug in the book, why not look at it as a spriritual problem, get off the drugs and deal with it.” My sister recommended Karme Choling because it was close, and I signed up for an extended in-house retreat. Later, I was on staff twice, the latter as Suzann Duquette’s assistant.
What I would like to say about all that is, within a container, a community, and a lot of time on the cushion, I learned to work with my mind, as an ally, and that mind is the same as everyone else’s. There is a false dichotomy set up in our entire approach to mental health care, and the language that has been built around our medically (mis)informed system perpetuates a myth.
The other thing I would like to say, speaking as an advocate for the Vermont Network Against Domestic Violence and Sexual Assault, as well as a volunteer for the marginalized, categorized, and traumatized residents of the city of Burlington, that I have witnessed a great deal of abusive language from teachers and mi’s directed towards those who have come to the teachings with the same experience as anyone else, except more of it. One example is right at the beginning, at Level II, and the amazing amount of aggression directed towards student’s experience. We seem to treat the “lower” levels as training grounds for new teachers.
I do not feel, as one high level teacher said to me, that my karma is worse than his because of my suffering. I feel fortunate that I have had this experience in this lifetime because there is a level of compassion in my understanding of the world that is too often, and sorely, missing in our western buddhist community.
And I chuckle, and apologize to Ginny, for another rant!
May the sangha flourish, sincerely,
Stephanie
Good Morning!
To briefly respond to Zirme and James, I’d like to tell the story about how I came to this sangha.
In trying to “treat” my trauma (diagnostic symptoms), the medical profession tried a lot of anti-depressant and anti-anxiety medications. Whatever feeling like my self feels like, medications sure felt worse. One day as I found myself walking into the line of traffic I went to the emergency room to discuss what was happening and the doctor, after looking at my history said: “Look. You’ve tried just about every drug in the book, why not look at it as a spriritual problem, get off the drugs and deal with it.” My sister recommended Karme Choling because it was close, and I signed up for an extended in-house retreat. Later, I was on staff twice, the latter as Suzann Duquette’s assistant.
What I would like to say about all that is, within a container, a community, and a lot of time on the cushion, I learned to work with my mind, as an ally, and that mind is the same as everyone else’s. There is a false dichotomy set up in our entire approach to mental health care, and the language that has been built around our medically (mis)informed system perpetuates a myth.
The other thing I would like to say, speaking as an advocate for the Vermont Network Against Domestic Violence and Sexual Assault, as well as a volunteer for the marginalized, categorized, and traumatized residents of the city of Burlington, that I have witnessed a great deal of abusive language from teachers and mi’s directed towards those who have come to the teachings with the same experience as anyone else, except more of it. One example is right at the beginning, at Level II, and the amazing amount of aggression directed towards student’s experience. We seem to treat the “lower” levels as training grounds for new teachers.
I do not feel, as one high level teacher said to me, that my karma is worse than his because of my suffering. I feel fortunate that I have had this experience in this lifetime because there is a level of compassion in my understanding of the world that is too often, and sorely, missing in our western buddhist community.
And I chuckle, and apologize to Ginny, for another rant!
May the sangha flourish, sincerely,
Stephanie
Stephanie wrote: “I have witnessed a great deal of abusive language from teachers and mi’s directed towards those who have come to the teachings with the same experience as anyone else, except more of it. One example is right at the beginning, at Level II, and the amazing amount of aggression directed towards student’s experience. . . .I do not feel, as one high level teacher said to me, that my karma is worse than his because of my suffering”
The fundamental attitude required of someone in the position of teacher or MI is an appreciative interest in other people’s neuroses, the texture of other people’s experience. That is the ground out of which it is possible to teach. If the teacher approaches the student’s personality and life circumstances with scorn, there is no basis for teaching.
The teacher whose response to your suffering was to be proud of the superiority of his or her own karma, does not understand the first thing about karma (hint: perception and response, not cause and effect). Again–who told this person he or she could teach? What you describe is abuse, not instruction.
Hello All. If I have one enduring memory of CTR it was that he could always see and work with one’s basic Buddha Nature which is intrinsically pure and beyond all attempts to categorize it or cover it with typical dualistic vision. It was because he was able to touch each individual that each individual felt welcomed and cared for.
To answer a previous question as to why I named this group The Blue Sangha, Probably because of the blues but Sangha because this is a type of Sangha or sub-Sangha, with it’s own experience grounded sometimes in segregation and bullying and other times grounded and humbled by having to live with a mental illness.
I feel that this is what it is. many people have come to Buddhism , driven by their suffering hoping to be able to come to terms with their personal demons. I always thought that depression would one day go away. That if I reached a milestone in my practice it might be lifted but it hasn’t and it won’t. Working with Depression is fine. CTR body never healed after his accident but, he went on, sometimes depressed, to inspire thousands of people. I’m quite glad that people have been sharing their experience’s . I used to think that a lack of problems was a sign of a good practitioner but, I was wrong. This is the path and the path is the goal. Kevin
Dear All,
Maha appreciation and gratitude this morning for everyone here; for being a part of, a witness to, a deeply transformative process.
At times this has been like the Gulf hole in the earth, and there has been a lot of emotional reactivity. This morning I came across a reminder that The Four Immeasurables act outside emotional reactivity. Yahoooo!
Again, thank you all so much. May the sangha flourish. Sincerely,
Steph
Baxk in the 70s, Chogyam Trungpa Rinpoche said “if you can sit on a cushion, you can meditate”.
He was referring to people taking anti depressants for their depression problems, and was sugesting they should meditate instead. He was somewhat anti medication for mental illness.
On the other hand, during a group audience at Marpa House, after Thrangu Rinpoche gave a talk saying along the lines that basic goodness / sanity unfolds it’s self naturally, I asked him about a friend who cracked up when she was 19 years old with bi-polar / schizophrenia. People usually come down with schizophrenia around that age, and how she can only function when she takes here anti depressants. He said people like her should take her medications and stay on them. They’ve suffered enough. Unfortunately, my feeling was that the Vidyadhara felt mental illness could be dealt with by meditation alone.
I think scientifically by now, we know schizophrenia is a physical disease , and they can provr this by showing how the brain’s neurons which normally are patterned like good soldiers are pointed in different directions. They have also proved in CAT scans that they do indeed hear voices like real voices.
My question is, I’d like to hear from people who take anti depressants find they really work. I was given anti depressants back in 2003 during my final stage of interferon treatment, which is notorious for causing depression.
I found they didn’t work (for me).
Rob.
First of all, CAT scans and such show what’s happening, but it shows nothing about cause and result. They don’t know how the brain works, much less the mind. They really don’t know. It has also been proven that meditation or any kind of specific mental discipline actually changes the way one’s brain works. There is ample evidence for that as well. Is shamatha enough to tip the balance? I think it may be sometimes. And shouldn’t one try that before medication, even if it is a struggle?
I never had the impression Trungpa Rinpoche was adamantly against medication, even if he did make it not seem like the first choice.
It was my impression that he encouraged people try to get through problems without that kind of help if at all possible, but if it wasn’t working, one should get the help one needs. I know he acknowledged that some people couldn’t or shouldn’t do shamatha; that in some cases it could exacerbate pyschosis. If that were the case, I heard he said, then they need to do whatever they need to do, before they enter into that kind of practice. He understood there has to be a somewhat healthy basis from which to operate (“The Four Foundations of Mindfulness” is a good description of that.)
I think this has to do with the ‘toughness’ of the Kagyu he sometimes bragged about. Basically, and it makes sense to me anyway, if I can tough through a problem I have without some form of medication, then I am that much more able to relate to that or similar problems when they arise again. It is perhaps only timing or chance that I didn’t land in a doctor’s office where I was prescribed something or other, because I was certainly no stranger to self medication.
Again, doesn’t mean never use medication, I don’t believe Trungpa Rinpoche ever said that, even if he didn’t encourage it.
Does anyone know of him ever telling someone to stop taking anti-psychotics or antidepressants? If he ever did request that, I can’t imagine it would have been done without some form of fairly constant monitoring and support.
Trungpa Rinpoche was not naive about how confused we can be, nor did he think that shamatha was the solution for all problems, even if he did think it was the only way to enter higher practices and overcome ego.
In reply to Rob’s question, I have been taking anti-depressants for 10 years, and they have definitely helped me as a person and as a practitioner. It took time to find the right drug or combination of drugs, and that has changed over time. It’s not a one-shot deal. You need a doctor who knows who you are and is willing to work closely with you to find that balance point between the Black Hole (what I call my depression) on one side and being too drugged to engage with life on the other side. I don’t know what Trungpa Rinpoche whould think about this. He doesn’t have to live every second of my life. I do. My own Lama thinks that if one has the sort of chemical imbalance that runs in my family, medications may be necessary for one to reach the point where one can even begin to practice.
That said, I know that meditation practice of all kinds (shamatha, yidam practice, dzogchen practices) are also effective in their own rrealm in helping one learn what thoughts are, how to work with them, learn what sense perceptions are and how to enjoy them, how to experience the beauty and preciousness of life.
I do not think that either-or thinking is helpful to anyone when considering the question of medication for depression.
I “think” recall Chogyam Trungpa Rinpoche saying people didn’t have time to get depressed in Tibet because they were such hard workers, so if he was anti meds, it could have been a cultural thing.
I most definitely can think of occasions where people stopped taking their meds, and had significant negative personality changes.
Hello all. When I lived at KCL in 1974, we had a Dhatun in which every participant had to team up with someone and cook at least twice. Sometimes we cooked casseroles
because they were easy to prepare.Someone was not happy with the food and spoke to CTR about the cooking situation. Suddenly we had a new rule to abide by, the no casseroles during dathun rule.Of course we all got in step and it would be a number of years before casseroles were served at KCL.Some years later I asked Rinpoche why he had forbidden this type of cooking. He said that he had never forbidden them but, had suggested that we cook other things as well.
I wasn’t surprised by what he said. In fact, this type of story, repeats itself many times while he was alive but the fact of the matter was that CTR was pragmatic if he was anything. The idea that CTR would suggest to someone who was battling Bi-Polar disorder or Major or even mid range depression, that they stop taking their meds is ludicrous. I can see him telling the Worried Well that perhaps they should try meditation for awhile to see if it helped their condition. This is understandable.
Rinpoche had a phrase that he used about how someone needed to be at a kitchen sink level to hear the teachings. I believe that this is true but, Mental Illness is not a static condition and while someone might not be at a kitchen sink level today, they could certainly move from an acute stage to a more chronic but manageable point in whch they could expand their lives through meditation practice.
I don’t think anybody suggested Rinpoche actually said to stop taking their medication(s).
Kevin
Also what I was trying to say was my impression of what the Vidyadhara was sayng was that he felt most forms of mental illness was psychological, not physical. We do now know many forms of mental illness is physical. Different Buddhist teachers have varying opinions about this. I just kind of disagreeing with him. Believe me, I have in the past. You can hear me on many a tapes of his public and restricted talks questioning everything. .
Rob
Rob,
I disagree that it is ‘definitively known’ that some diseases are chemical based.
While it is absolutely true chemical imbalances can be observed, and working with those chemical imbalances themselves can be productive, it is still very much unknown and perhaps unknowable how the mind works. Hell they (the ones who ‘know’ about these things) don’t even know what consciousness is, much less how the brain or mind works. They just don’t know and the honest ones will admit it with admiration and deep respect for what they are studying.
All doctors and scientists are seeing at this point is higher resolution details of what is going on at the moment. But that’s kind of like sitting on a river bank watching how it moves around the rocks you can see, and claiming to know all about it’s source and where it will eventually end up.
There is also scientificy evidence that when we use our minds in a certain, way, like for instance meditation but also any repeated activity or discipline, that the mind changes physically in observable ways.
This doesn’t negate the effectiveness of chemical intervention when people are in distress. It does however indicate that there may be more we could do ourselves with proper guidance and instruction from realized beings.
I would trust almost nobody with that sort of guidance, it isn’t something MIs, acharayas or other s with agendas should be entrusted with particularly, but I do believe it can exist.
As someone earlier posted, our tendency towards black and white thinking is probably too restrictive in this realm, there are lots of possibilities yet.
James
Explain to me then why schizophrenia mostly hits people when they are 18 – 19 years old.
Coincidence? I doubt it.
Rob
Rob,
I can’t explain why, and neither can the people who observe that phenomenon. They can only say what they see, and then conjecture, sometimes wildly, about the causes.
Just a very quick look gleaned at: http://www.schizophrenia.com/hypo.php
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“Experts now agree that schizophrenia develops as a result of interplay between biological predisposition (for example, inheriting certain genes) and the kind of environment a person is exposed to. These lines of research are converging: brain development disruption is now known to be the result of genetic predisposition and environmental stressors early in development (during pregnancy or early childhood), leading to subtle alterations in the brain that make a person susceptible to developing schizophrenia. Environmental factors later in life (during early childhood and adolescence) can either damage the brain further and thereby increase the risk of schizophrenia, or lessen the expression of genetic or neurodevelopmental defects and decrease the risk of schizophrenia. In fact experts now say that schizophrenia (and all other mental illness) is caused by a combination of biological, psychological and social factors, and this understanding of mental illness is called the bio-psycho-social model.”
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What this indicates, Rob, in relationship to schizophrenia, and which I think we can safely extrapolate to other disorders, is that it is not purely a chemical imbalance or genetic disposition even as that is a contributing factor, but also a slew of other influences, some entirely external, but some, and this is the point at which ‘rock meets bone’, that have to do with how we ourselves work with our minds and interact with the external world.
How we do things in itself actually has physically observable effects on the structure of the brain. There is indeed some research with observable recordable statistics, some cataloged in “Destructive Emotions: A Scientific Dialogue with the Dalai Lama” edited by Daniel Goleman that indicate if not prove that meditation can help to ‘protect’ the mind in significant and real ways.
Interestingly one of the synonyms for vajrayana is “mind protection”. Not like a pill one takes and is cured, but as an ongoing discipline that changes the structure of the brain and how synapsis fire and interact etc..
It is also likely that a number of similar but different diseases are all labeled schizophrenia due to the sciences not being advanced enough to discern that they may have very different causes. Depression too can be due to very different things, sometimes internal chemical imbalances, or external events, or sometimes neurotic patterns we get caught in. It isn’t just one thing with one cause, and therefore one cure.
In the inspiration of the talk “The Four Foundations of Mindfulness” in the book “The Heart of the Buddha” where Trungpa Rinpoche says: “The purpose of meditation practice is to try to save oneself from psychosis.”
Funny you mention Daniel Goleman. He’s a friend of mine, and helped to sponsor me on a retreat program last Summer.
There is a lady who has autism, and is famous because she has written several books on animal behavior. I’ve heard her interviewed on NPR’s show Fresh Air (with Terri Gross) twice. I wish I could remember her name right now.
She now teaches at University Of Colorado Ft. Collins campus (I believe..May it’s the Colorado Springs Campus).
She was asked how she managed to pull out of her autism enough to function and she explained how. I forgot how she did it. Maybe somebody out there heard that interview, can can explain it for us. I think it may have something to do with a regimen of routine behavior.
When I was a teenager, one of my best friends had a sister who was autistic. She was given Thorazine daily (a powerful drug), and eventually put in a school that was run by the University of Chicago. where they blamed autism on the parents. They were actually given blow up people balloon dolls that were to represent their parents so they could punch it, and let off her hostility (she had very good parents).
Eventually, they found out she had brain damage, and was born with it..