Open Dojo
December 4, 2011 by Mark Szpakowski 
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by Mark Szpakowski
Practice room at Juniper Lodge, Windhorse Farm, Nova Scotia
An ongoing question for various types of Buddhists, especially those who have been in a relationship with someone they consider “enlightened”, is how to carry on in the absence of such an individual. This certainly affects the Vajrayana students of Chögyam Trungpa Rinpoche, with whom they were in a student/master relationship, and whom they considered the authoritative center of an enlightened mandala.
Trungpa Rinpoche’s first teachings on mandala referred to it as society. It is not surprising, then, that the Shambhala [1] students of Trungpa’s secular manifestation as Shambhala King feel the same issue: if you had some glimpse, through his leadership, of what an enlightened society could be, how can you carry on and realize that vision in the absence of such a figure? Is enlightened society possible without an enlightened leader?
In both cases these are profound and edgy questions, and also deeply disturbing to those for whom democracy is the best answer yet to the question of how to govern.
One venue where this has been explored, whether willingly, wittingly, or not, has been at the Alia Institute. Alia – Authentic Leadership in Action – originally the Shambhala Institute for Authentic Leadership, was founded by a group of the Shambhala students of Chögyam Trungpa, who felt that the vision of a society that acknowledges and embodies both the secular and the sacred – beyond religious affiliations, including Buddhism – was worth realizing. The Institute welcomed those who, in technical Shambhala vocabulary, were warriors: those with a strong personal discipline of awareness, openness, and care, without aggression. Beyond welcoming, the Institute discovered such individuals already out there, who also welcomed the Institute back into their own spaces. Over the course of a decade, the Institute grew to not just include, but also to be coming from these individuals and their particular roots. Program after program, the participants built and held a container which felt open yet precise, not ignoring but kind, to the point yet playful. This was done as a cyclically recurring, and somewhat nomadic, community, with several programs a year, many in Nova Scotia, but also throughout the world.
The Open Dojo is one term that has emerged from this. It refers to a space of group practice that does not belong to anyone. It is no man’s land (to use a phrase Trungpa used in this context). It is a practice ground of listening, communicating, and acting. At the same time it is uncompromising, not swayed by wishful thinking and the sly fudging of ego. It is authentic – and its source and guardian is not one central figure, but a community of diverse practitioners. The Dojo is a container for practicing the way. The amazing thing is that it is possible for people, coming from various contemplative and leadership traditions, to recognize each other, and to recognize ground cultivated and allowed by them individually and collectively, held without ownership. This is a challenge – including and especially for those who feel they are holders of an authentic practice DNA that needs protection.
From this point of view, the Open Dojo is the heart of enlightened society. This is true for those who experienced that possibility through the presence of what seemed to be an enlightened being manifesting as leader. It is also true for those who never had such an experience, and may not believe it is possible or desirable, but who nevertheless have aspiration for and experience of Open Dojo.
Does that mean that the idea of a society ruled by a monarch – who, classically, joins heaven, earth, and man – is passé? Looking around us, we certainly see lots of anti-open-dojo patterns in a parade of dictators, kings, powerful individuals and their family dynasties, not to mention elected rulers. But that suggests something further.
How is it that so many smart, tough people in a two decade span late in the 20th century were willing to see Chögyam Trungpa as an enlightened leader? Sudden rememberance: because that person embodied the Open Dojo. He was embodiment of no man’s land: he lived the space where any trace of pretence and ego was obvious, and could not survive. If you thought you knew him, you quickly learned different. This is a scary, yet magnetic, place. Unblinking, yet nakedly genuine – and also attentive and kind.
It comes down to the same thing. At the heart of enlightened society is the Open Dojo, whether held by the group or embodied and held in a single individual. If the erstwhile ruler is not an Open Dojo, the people sense that, and ultimately he or she can neither command nor rule. The inner and personal space of the ruler must itself be no man’s land. To re-coin an old phrase, no man’s land and king are one.
It goes further, of course, because individuals must also hold themselves that way: otherwise, they cannot recognize the presence or absence of the Open Dojo. Before you can consider an external king, you must be king of yourself [2]. And to recognize open space that is genuine yet not owned by any one individual – a group Dojo – you have to a) recognize such spark in yourself, b) recognize it in others, and c) gradually realize that it is b) more than a) that is the path and the goal.
Something interesting opens up here: if the citizens or subjects are not themselves kings and queens of themselves, then even with the most enlightened leader the vision of an enlightened society will not be realized. We cannot get away from it – it is our ground that must be first cultivated and realized in its own open nature.
The Open Dojo is not mythical. It is not the extraordinary of long ago fable or Hollywood movie. It is the extraordinary of the ordinary, whether at an Alia Institute gathering, or at – can we dare – an Occupy the Future gathering, or your next get together. It is necessary for monarchy as well as socialism as well as democracy. It is more essential than any of those forms, because it is the heart of their success, if any.
A final note, in Buddhist language: In 1968 Chögyam Trungpa gave a talk in which he said that Maitreya, the buddha of the future, would not be an individual, but society. For both the religious buddhist, looking up to a “master”, and the secular enlightened society advocate, yearning for enlightened leadership, this is provocative. It says something about how we think, and hints how future society can shape itself.
[1] I am using the term “Shambhala” here in the way Chögyam Trungpa used it, pointing to the idea of an enlightened society that brings together both secular and sacred outlook, inclusive of but not dependent on any one religious tradition. This is not to be confused with “Shambhala Buddhism”, in which Shambhala teachings distinguish a particular form of Buddhism. For an excellent concise summary of Trungpa’s Shambhala vision, see the just published article Ocean of Dharma, Shambhala Sun (January, 2012]).
[2] Paraphrase from an attendee’s interchange with Trungpa at 1973 “Nine Yanas” seminar in San Francisco.
Interesting article. I love it when students of Chogyam Trungpa write about this kind of thing. Reminds me how wonderful it was to do some Shambhala Levels led by students of CTR.
But what exactly is the point of this article? Is it an invitation or a call to action of some kind? Or just a sharing of a beautiful experience, a kind of storytelling?
Anyway, thanks for sharing.
Are you saying that the religious Buddhist and the religious Secular Enlightened Society Advocate [SESA] are the same in that they are both based on irrational devotion?
And so then you’re contrasting that with hinted-at rational devotion of the ir-religious Buddhist and ir-religious SESA?
What would the rational devotion of the ir-religious SESA be like?
And what is beyond-rational devotion like for the ir-religious SESA? Thank you.
Thank you Mark -pithy clear and heartfelt.
Mark, your use of quotes around “enlightened” in the first sentence of your article and and “seemed to be an enlightened being” in the sixth paragraph seems either to indicate substantial doubt on your part about enlightenment being real — or else deference to the opinions of readers who have these doubts.
The wonderful thing about Buddhism, of course, is that enlightenment becomes more real and apparent the more it is immersed in and viewed from the perspective of ego and samasara. Enlightenment is given up in stages on the path — and perhaps from a view of the highest yanas you could let go of the idea. But that doesn’t mean that it is helpful or accurate to adopt a deconstructionist approach and say that all views and all doubts are equally valid.
I also get the sense from your musings on society and enlightened community that you are uncomfortable with the idea of a guru — now that CTR has been dead these 25 years. I recall that CTR spoke quite a lot about guru principal and the importance of there being an actual person to relate with. This is consistent with everything I have ever read about the Vajrayana.
I expect that your enlightened society / community idea with no guru necessarily excludes the Vajrayana. Not that that entirely invalidates the idea.
Thank you, Mark! In answer to Edward’s question, “what exactly is the point of this article?”, of course I can’t speak for Mark. But I would say that it speaks directly to some of the discussions about politics and monarchy, etc., that have been going on in the ‘Differing Views and Paths’ thread. Mark says, “if the citizens or subjects are not themselves kings and queens of themselves, then even with the most enlightened leader the vision of an enlightened society will not be realized. We cannot get away from it – it is our ground that must be first cultivated and realized in its own open nature.”
This is what the Vidyadhara tried so hard to get us to realize. Until that happens we’re just entertaining ourselves with speculation.
On the other hand, I find the insights in this article, born of Mark’s own observation and experience, to be very relevant for anyone who aspires to create an ‘open dojo’ in any situation – whether a ‘dharma study group’ for studying and practicing VCTR teachings, or a self-sufficient and sustainable, land-based community that intends to make it through the turbulence of this century. Or anything else.
I love what you’re saying ,Mark, and, I feel you took many words out of my mouth.
But I still don’t grok the “open dojo” concept. Maybe there’s a leap there I’m not getting.
help the simple minded like me.
I love what you’re saying ,Mark, and, I feel you took many words out of my mouth.
But I still don’t grok the “open dojo” concept. Maybe there’s a leap there I’m not getting.
help the simple minded like me.
Well, there’s certainly a variety of responses, evidently coming from different places that you who responded are at. Thank you! Perhaps that’s what “Open Dojo” is about. To respond in detail would be a huge discussion, but we could start and do our best.
Re John T, I see Open Dojo as a practice space, that is “held”, not just by one practice tradition, but by a number of these. Depth practitioners of different kinds, being able to create an authentic and deeply shared space together. I’m not talking just of peak moments, by the way: if it’s not mundane it’s not real. Edward, I’m sharing some of what I, and some others in a number of contexts, have been learning, and as Suzanne says, also the questions that have been arising around politics, society, monarchy, etc. Jim W, I don’t discount the doubts or questions others have about things like “enlightenment” – and that questioning is also a place where meeting is possible. Maybe you and i take a lot of concepts for granted. CTR didn’t first approach us with his enlightened or whatever credentials: the presence and the experience came first. After that those kinds of words had some real meaning. No less is required of you
and I 
John C, the rational vs irrational question is posed by you, and not something I’ve felt. I suppose it could be parsed out. I’m really just repeating what CTR said about the nature of things not being the intellectual properly of anyone or any religious ism, and that you can approach it directly through inherent human intelligence and sentience. It’s sentience – intelligence with care – more than rational/irrational. Secular sacred outlook, not “owned” by anybody, is the ground and the atmosphere of “Open Dojo”: that’s where we can meet about things that matter. That needs to be brought into the secular realm, of governance, economics, eco-systemic-care: it can no longer be abstracted away or relegated as the property of “religions” only. It can’t just be sunday school – it has to be part of financial and business bookkeeping. Literally
What Mark said about the nature of things not being the property of anyone, and that secular sacred outlook is not owned by anybody, reminded me of the conversations going on among ‘secular’ groups about “the commons,” an idea whose time has come AGAIN. Look it up at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_commons. But one of the ways to understand the opposite of the commons idea is suggested in this line: “the process by which commonly held property is transformed into private property is termed “enclosure”.” Well, we could do a whole other thread on that subject as it relates to what’s happened with the commons that the Vidyadhara left us!
The commons in England – or I suppose among some Native American tribes – had to do with the common endowment of Nature, the land, the forests, pastures, rivers, etc. Nobody ‘owned’ it because it was bigger and older than any humans or human generations and was the legacy that responsible humans left to future generations. (I’m trying to explain sane attitudes that preceded the mania for private property and “privatization” that we were born in the midst of. In case anyone hasn’t noticed, the outcome of the privatizing mania is not turning out to be so healthy for the common good.)
Now what’s all that have to do with the Open Dojo? Mark said, “The Dojo is a container for practicing the way. The amazing thing is that it is possible for people, coming from various contemplative and leadership traditions, to recognize each other, and to recognize ground cultivated and allowed by them individually and collectively, held without ownership.” “For practicing The Way.” What is The Way? That’s something that is probably discussed at length in the Open Dojo.
I just got a book off my shelf titled “The Way: An Ecological World-View” by Edward Goldsmith (signed by him on Earth Day 1993). The Way is a secular sacred topic of conversation and practice among many different disciplines, spiritual traditions, and movements. It’s a term in Taoism for correct human behavior in accordance with the way of Nature, the cosmos. An equivalent term in Sanskrit is Dharma (a term not owned by Buddhism). The Way as an ecological worldview is the conversation and practice within the Deep Ecology movement, for example. (I taught it at Naropa for 12 years.)
How do you ‘practice The Way’? Long discussion!
Just a thought as a stab at trying to understand this “open dojo”
concept.
To my way of thinking, if the center is not an enlightened person,
(for however long a time span) then the Regent, or other appointed
holder of the tradition merely continues the (hard word to choose)
“program” of his predecessor. Dzigar Khontrul Ribpoche made a
statement saying that that was what he was doing to uphold his
teacher’s tradition. So, it seems that there is at least one way that the
“open dojo” could continue without an actual “enlightened “ leader,
although, the “Regent” has to have…some…”credential” ….that that
person is acknowledged as a valid “holder” of the tradition…
But they don’t go hog wild and change everything suddenly….
Oops! slip of the keyboard!
As a Buddhist, I’ve seen things that would make you crap a book on how to puke.
OK….so…is this the open dojo too?
Or am I simply making a fool of myself?
Could we say that open dojo refers to a practice atmosphere of non-ego, created by either a teacher or a group of practitioners? So you’re saying that any healthy society or practitioner needs such an atmosphere created? OK. But then you jump from there to define a pan-traditional social group, in which cleaving to a specific path/practice is suspect. (“This is a challenge…for those who feel they are holders of an authentic practice DNA that needs protection.”) That’s tantamount to saying that this healthy atmosphere of non-ego cannot happen without a sort of Unitarianism.
You see open dojo as “a shared practice space”. Practicing what? Warriorship? Non-ego? The [implied] inclusive meta-paradigm of the open dojoites must remain vague to remain inclusive. As Jim W. pointed out, even enlightenment is a questionable sectarian premise under such a scheme. Doesn’t it just end up being a way to avoid being stuck within the real parameters of an actual path? And why do people of different faiths really need to share, anyway? (Isn’t that sort of well intentioned sharing why the Shambhala Sun is such a milquetoast bore of a magazine, after all?)
Would the open dojoites share a tastefully non-sectarian Authenticity Room, as implied by the photo accompanying this piece? What would they do there once they’ve cleansed their spiritual palate of “bias”? How would it be different from past episodes of retail self-development psychology co-opting spirituality to sell vague ideas and trademarked terminology? From what I can gather at the Alia Institute website, it seems to be some sort of blend between Shambhala practice, pop psychology and business management psychology — charging some $500+/day to teach people “leadership”. Leadership is an odd term that you partner, inexplicably, with “contemplative” in your presentation. In business management circles “leadership” is a euphemism for “how to make more money and be more important through exploitation of your underlings at work”. The Alia website sets a more noble tone than that. They seem to mean well. But do you really think that this latest repackaging of pop psychology and spirituality is a step ahead of real spiritual path? People don’t pay $500/day for no-man’s land, and leadership is not a synonym for spiritual practice.
Dear Mark et al
I have been contemplating this ‘conception’ of an open dojo for about a week now…it reminded me of the Polly Wellenbech story on the Project where Rinpoche meets a Hare Krishna devotee on campus and states to him that he has Krishna in his heart….its an amazing story and kind of shows to me the depth of Rinpoches practice in that he can be that open to other faiths and people. Likewise it seems that Thomas Merton was that open too in that he contemplated having Tibetan rinpoches as his instructors in meditation –so yes these men are really ‘depth practitioners’ as you have pointed out.
However for the rest of us out there who are not so accomplished –how do we begin to connect with each other. Perhaps it would be useful if you could actually describe or fingerpaint the practices that you undertook at Alia and the discussions that went on.
Myself re some bottom line I am rather holding to the basic meditation practice that Chogyam Trungpa Rinpoche gave us because I feel this is a genuine practice to work with. How would you in an open dojo group get that sense of genuineness re peoples many engagements with the meditation process. Indeed why many of us turned to the east was because there was a loss of such traditions in the west-so yes there even has to be a discussion about that quality of openness too.
In addition there are a growing number of New Age movements out there too –some of them more open than others – how would that fit into an open dojo –how could the participants discern what was mere fascination and gung-ho-ness with meditation and genuine connection and practice?
Of course those of us who did many of the levels in shambhala thought the open dojo would flourish there as a wholistic body of teachings and practice –so are you saying that now that the forms re shambhala have been established for some that we outside of that dimension have to somewhat re-establish a much broader connection to practice? If that is the case I too am considering ways that could be done in a western context at first.
Also for me democracy is very, very, very important …….so I am returning to the study of left-wing thinkers who seem to embody aspects of many secular practices of engagement with the world which includes Art and dialectic process which in some instances could be equated in a Buddhist sense with the openness of zen
I also feel the respect for democracy in the most widest sense that we have in the west may be why the more profound thinking about practice is happening here because we have somewhat experienced the limits of materialism and are now foundering on what to do next which will succeed here.
Well hope the discussion goes on apace because whatever we devise in the future re our own paths or perhaps even ‘new’ paths that await to be ‘discovered’ I think will have to embody the qualities of an open dojo that you are describing.
Best from the UK
Rita Ashworth
Jim – my use of quotes around “enlightened” is simply to indicate that the perceived meaning of that adjective varies termendously. People have different implicit understandings of it (even within the same tradition), and I’d like to acknowledge that and leave open a space within which those understandings are let be, and maybe even let go. If you have met people of practice traditions other than your own, who are as much true “warriors” (again, there’s a very special meaning I give to this term) as anyone you have met within your own tradition, then the space where you meet is completely open, and un-owned by you or them. That is both humbling and inspiring. I, and others, have had such experience, especially (for me) in the last decade or so.
I am not at all saying that all vews and doubts are equally valid. I can insist on those being genuine and as truly held as are mine. I have pretty high standards – I am a direct student of Chögyam Trungpa. He is a strong bullshit detector. But further, like him, I can acknowledge others in their most enlightened aspect – I am at least challenged to do so. And, to my delight, I have found, and do find, others I can relate with like that. This is 100% at the heart of where I’m (and you are?) coming from: you may recall that CTR put Little Joe’s picture on the Karma Dzong shrine. (Little Joe was a Native American Church leader). That’s quite a statement.
I think it is important to have a personal spiritual practice and discipline, so you can work and rest with the mirror of your own mind/heart. From that you can meet others, rest with them, and dialog, play, and work together. That is a further practice, and mirror. These other people have their own forms of practice. What matters is that they are “yogic” practitioners, actually working on themselves.
I am not at all uncomfortable with the idea of a guru: I have personal, daily practice and understanding of that. But you and I, within the same sangha, certainly have different personal practices of that, and probably somewhat different understandings. And those vary even more in the wide world. The forms of our personal practices are not our meeting points, not where we meet others. They are important for us, and essential to enable the authenticity and openness of that open space within which we do meet others. (continued… )
The forms of our personal practices are not our meeting points, not where we meet others. They are important for us, and essential to enable the authenticity and openness of that open space within which we do meet others. That is the open dojo, of and for a world which is teaming with people and their religions and practices, a tiny percentage of which are Buddhist. As CTR expressed it, “Shambhala vision applies to people of any faith, not just people who believe in Buddhism… A kingdom should have lots of different spiritual disciplines in it.” Creating the forms for and of such a secular society (not of a religion) seems to be an essential task of these times. I’m suggesting “open dojo” as a minimum form or pattern for governance, whether by an individual or by a parliament. That’s actually a very high standard.
“enlightened”
“the perceived meaning….varies tremendously…”
“People have different implicit understanding…”
“I’d like to…let go [of those understandings]…”
Then what is lamrim about?
And the bhumis?
And the 4 yogas of Mahamudra?
And the oxherding pictures?
And Buddhism?
They all describe enlightenment in great detail. Are they just so many colorful sophistries? (VROT once voiced an apropos, emphatic warning: [paraphrase] “Don’t mistake these teachings as theoretical. They are practical.”)
Don’t we need to differentiate between levels of View as opposed to just differences of opinion or “perceived meanings”? (I’m harping on the lack of definition in your meta-paradigm again.
My understanding is that you set up this website to discuss Buddhist and Shambhala practice, yet you repeatedly seem to define those as just two of a myriad of choices in something more important: a well adjusted society! If the cart of enlightened society gets a position in front of the horse of Dharma, how is that anything more than worldly politics, or worse, Utopianism? Is that Shambhala Vision?
“I can acknowledge others in their most enlightened aspect…”
?? So you do have a definition for “enlightened”?
“warriors”
“there’s a very special meaning I give to this term”
??
This seems to be to an attempt at a short description of what ‘enlightened society’ might feel like, the defining factor being open space rather than any particular structure as such. Good start, still much unclear.
All points of contention (and smarmy remarks) seems to orbit around a misapprehension Shambhala Buddhism seems to foster, that our spiritual path: student/guru relationship, devotion, surrender, overcoming ego, requisite beliefs and specific practices on the one hand, and on the other whatever form or system is adopted for organizing society or group activity, are the same thing. It’s not true even within a single school.
In the statement: “If the erstwhile ruler is not an Open Dojo, the people sense that, and ultimately he or she can neither command nor rule.” is easily enough understood, however, any thoughts on what to do if the ruler isn’t Open Dojo, how citizens might improve it, correct it, checks balances that sort of thing, or what effect that has on society are undefined. There’s a reason absolute power over society is no longer in vogue. That is where spiritual practice has little power and the logistics of governing become critical.
The next paragraph puts the onus on the governed to be developed enough to recognize that in oneself and so in others; that in fact that is the path and the goal, brings us back to the unfortunate concept that spiritual path and forms of government are the same. I think it is crystal clear that government and its role in education, creation of group identity, laws, legislation, justice and finance is in a clearly more responsible position. Or leadership is a principle only lauded when things are going well, and individual responsibility the buzz word when leadership fails.
One ought not judge a spiritual school by the level of inspiration students have alone. There has to be something else more substantive going on. In the same way it would be a poor measure to determine the ‘enlightenment’ of a society by the level of emotional commitment or its vision.
In the inspiration that if you want to determine whether a society is ‘enlightened’ or not, don’t settle on inspirational chatter, instead discover how they approach and solve problems. That’s the level at which society will manifest any enlightenment it may have, because that’s what government’s about.
Speaking as an old fashioned Buddhist person I feel like I am supported in my dharma study and practice by internally affirming a clear lineage connection. So (at the risk of boring readers!) the basic dharma, as taught by Buddha, advises us that developing shila, samadhi and prajna will help clarify and tame our minds. Then, with a calmer mind and maitri towards ourselves, we can expand our vision to take the bodhisattva vow and to practice with the view that the welfare of others is more important than our own welfare. This is because we have the compassionate attitude. Finally, we have the skilfull means of vajrayana by which enlightenment can be reached in one lifetime.
As we know, the effectiveness of the three yana approach has, as its foundation, the connection to an authentic master and his lineage. So in this may, we can work with what is genuine and further our dharma path.
In Halifax, as an example, we have a number of small, but commited and stable dharma groups that practice and study together within this traditional framework and in the context of having explicit relationships to well known Tibetan lineage holders. I, myself, have for the last half year enjoyed participating in two of these groups, (In the midst of a very busy work schedule).
Maybe these remarks are a little bit helpful.
Dennis Rivers, cyberfriend of mine, has created a website that seems to embody the Open Dojo concept and vision for both living on the Earth and living with one another. The site says:
The Earth is an island in the vast ocean of interstellar space.
How will we care for our beautiful island? How will we care for one another?
Earthlandia is a virtual country in the ocean of cyberspace devoted to exploring more sustainable and compassionate ways of both living on the Earth and living with one another. Our vision is to create a sheltering space where people can explore how to become better citizens of the Web of Life. Earthlandia is a creative exercise in both thinking and feeling outside the box of the current person-as-consumer-only thinking that is ascendant in the world today, is making us miserable, and is killing the planet.
Every actual country consists not only of its physical territory, but also the agreements people share about how to live, how to care for one another, and how to care for the land on which they are guests. These agreements are not physical objects, they are shared understandings that exist in some sort of “mental space” not so different from cyberspace. Every actual country is partly mental. Earthlandia! is a country in heart-and-mind-space, in which people can clarify what kind of world they actually want to nurture, and what kind of people they want to become.
See Earthlandia! a place to explore the kind of world we want to make together http://earthlandia.net/
Is this not an invitation to an Open Dojo that is as vast as is needed at this time in human/Earth history???
“There are no games without holes in them.” Keith Dowman
Dear Suzanne, James
Many thanks for the earthlandia website – I will explore it. It looks really good re the articles that he has supplied.
I have myself have been checking out the Zapatista movement because of Holloways involvement with them–they seem to embody for me aspects of democracy that dovetail with the enlightened society ‘concept’ very well in that people are acutely involved in the ‘political’ process in a communal manner. Of course they might not practice formal meditation as we do but because they are primarily of Mayan descent in Chiapas I expect they are following some form of ‘religious’ ceremonies both Catholic and of Mayan origin.
In addition they are actually governing areas of the Chiapas region which is amazing aswell in a country so much embroiled in being exploited by the US. Also their notion of ‘obedient authority’ is an interesting one to contemplate in that it unites both the people and the ‘officials’ who are temporarily employed to help run the areas.
Here is a post from utube about the Zapatistas which highlights the work they are doing …..
http://youtu.be/fCmQWFOw3Xo very interesting….. also maybe John (T) might be able to comment on them as I believe he is living in Mexico.
James –good post -yes I am for the separation of state and ‘religion’ but I still feel the political class in both the west and the east have to go beyond the idea of just being managerial types devoid of the values of seeing people and the world in a wholistic fashion. So then we are again into a difficult area in denoting the qualities a public civil servant should have in regard to their interactions with people – if they indeed had that old-fashioned virtue of dignity which could be equated with basic goodness the political process would go better I believe.
Well just some thoughts re ‘politics’ and enlightened society because I believe the ‘open dojo’ must also be about the flow of power back and forth.
Best from the UK
Rita
I don’t know much about the Zapatistas per se, but in general, there are many areas in Mexico which run semi autonomously from the Federal government.
I read an article comparing Thailand to Mexico, saying there is more freedom because the central governments are weak, so experiments, like the Zapatista movement here, can flourish.
Thanks, Rita, for the mention of and the link to the Zapatistas. Subcomandante Marcos, ‘spokesman for the Zapatistas,’ is my favorite revolutionary hero – far more appealing than the slobbering Zizek. Wikipedia has a pretty good article on him here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Subcomandante_Marcos.
My favorite quote by Subcomandante Insurgente Marcos:
“I’d rathe die on my feet than live on my knees.”
That quote has been attributed to everyone from Euripides to Ronald Reagan to the Tea Party. It is nothing more than a very versatile pretext for aggression.
I prefer the Tibetan aphorisms — “One should live in the circle of dogs” or “Humbleness is the dwelling place of the forefathers”. No one is lower — no pride — no ambition. Then there is the possibility of peace.
Jim Wilton, actually, I think it was Zapata – the Mexican revolutionary after whom the Zapatistas are named – who was famous for that quote. To die on one’s feet rather than live on one’s knees does not have to be interpreted as aggression, unless one is so cowardly that the idea of standing up for what one believes, and being willing to be shot down for one’s confidence, seems like aggression. I guess that is the point of view of those who think living on one’s knees as a slave is more virtuous. In any case, it’s silly to compare aphorisms in this instance, as if quoting a Mexican revolutionary disqualifies one from also being fond of, for instance, “Humbleness is the dwelling place of the forefathers.” Don’t you remember how the Vidyadhara deplored cowardice????
I was surprized too, Suzanne.
Macho statements struggling against the shackles of the enemy and injustices… one has to intentionally ignore how such statements have been used historically to believe it is not meant in that way.
Weren’t all the men in that video wearing masks?
I mean what’s that about?
One might be able to justify it if you hold your head just so… but the long and short of it is people with power who do not want their identities known, even small children know that’s not right and won’t end well.
The Zapatista movement looks to be a revolutionary or reactive form of government, defined primarily by its defiance or autonomy from a corrupt and probably inept central government (or weak as Jon pointed out). That’s all well and good, a revolution may be the only way to break a corrupt established power, (I support the #ows movement as such) but… let’s call the Zapatistas what they are: an attempt to create an infrastructure within which people can survive in spite of bad weak government, not because of good government. I’d need a lot more convincing before I accepted that it might be anything like enlightened government or something expressing ‘open dojo’ principle Mark described.
In the inspiration that the path helps us to stop the struggling against our projections
James, I’m not an expert on the Zapatistas, but my limited understanding is that Zapatista men, women and children were wearing masks to hide their identities from paramilitary assassins, and to symbolize that they are all in it together – in solidarity. Subcomandante Marcos wore a mask because he was a target for assassination, and the people joined him in wearing a mask – as if to say, “Are you going to shoot us all?” Where did you get “People with power who do not want their identities known?” How about people without power whose identities are submerged in their solidarity?
If you know anything about indigenous struggles against imperialistic domination, you might recognize that “Dying on our feet” is a statement of defiance against an oppressor – a statement that echoes the Native American saying, “It’s a good day to die.” When under attack, the Samurai had a similar attitude on the field of battle. Defiance is not the same as aggression. Even the United Nations recognizes that.
Yes, the Zapatistas are attempting to “create an infrastructure within which people can survive in spite of bad weak [cruelly indifferent, corrupt] government.” But given how little they had, their attempt to create a viable democratic alternative – in which power is shared, the children are educated, the land is protected, and justice is sought – seems an admirable alternative to defeat, despair and substance abuse, which is often the state in which oppressed people find themselves.
I see the ‘open dojo’ principle operating in the Zapatiistas’ attempt to bring their basic goodness to bear in governing themselves with mutual respect. I’m not claiming it is “enlightened government.” However, instead of looking down our Shambhalian noses at such an attempt, thinking we’re above all that because we are so ‘civilized,’ we might be wiser to realize there are lessons we can learn from such people, and that those lessons might be useful if and as conditions in the world deteriorate (further). Are you paying attention to conditions in the world?
My nose is Shambhalian? You haven’t been paying attention, Suzanne. Or is it a compliment…
I’m not at all sure.
My point isn’t that whatever the Zapas are doing is wrong or bad, defiance against oppressors is necessary, you won’t get any argument with me there. Again, Viva la #OWS movement in all its guises.
However, if a system of organization, a government, is defined by its resistance to a larger central government, then struggle will be the defining dynamic. (In Shambhala it has been said we are trying to change all social paradigms, which I find just as aggressive and disrespectful towards vernacular culture and wisdom, but that’s for another thread…)
You can talk about the necessity of hiding their identities, no doubt there’s some truth to it, but it’s a slippery and steep slope to something else when everyone’s wearing masks to hide who they are. Open dojo it is not.
I think we’re on, once again that cusp of spiritual practice versus political process. On one hand, there is something to accomplish within the spiritual path. One does attain something we call realization or perhaps just wisdom. There’s something to figure out, and when one has done that, one is considered accomplished.
On the other hand, the poitical process is swimming in impermanence and will never be ‘accomplished’ as such, it is not the same as a human being who can be. Politics is about responding to an external and changing world appropriately. But in political systems we should see the seeds of futures past.
Just saw an interview with Chris Hitchens, who was as a young man an idealist who moved to Cuba to join the revolution. Upon his arrival they gave him his first frozen daquiri (which he greatly appreciated), and then they took his passport away saying “We’ll give it back when you leave.” That’s when he started to feel creepy about what was going on there.
In the inspiration of seeing the seeds of karma before they become kudzu infestations.
Hi everybody, glad to be checking back in here. I think I have some sense of the open dojo concept. I think I saw it in action in so many of the OWS videos. I felt it in a small way here in Halifax. It was amazing to me how fluid peaceful and unified the crowds were able to function and in a sense govern themselves. Also I saw, to my amazement, the best examples of spontaneous insight – gone wild ! Truly, this made me happy.
Dear Suzanne, James, Mark
Many thanks for your comments on the Zapatistas…..yes the main reason I mentioned them was in connection to John Holloways theories about capitalism being ‘cracked’ open by the various world crises in the environment and social affairs….so yes it was that sense of things, life as we know it, being less defined by what we consider as ‘normal’. Holloway is intriguing ….he strikes me as being very open to the general disquiet that people have about our present ‘political’ structures, much as Fromm was in the past-so hes quite a deep thinker.
Zapatistas and the masks I had not considered the ramifications of them-you can I believe associate the wearing of them with the exercise of power as they do in theatre-so thats also something that passed through my mind.
Anyhow I did see some of the connections that Holloway was making about ‘social’ affairs in terms of the general sense of waking up to life and being on open ground in that at present much of our lives are embedded in the capitalistic dimension and the consequent alienation of that state.
So yes how would that tie up with the ‘open dojo’ concept-well for me it would be a process of removing a kind of habitual pattern we seem to slip into in the west of viewing our relationships with the world and people with a very acquisitive and protective eye. So here Holloway is clearing away those kind of materialistic motives in a dialectical sense. So yes maybe in an intellectual sense thats good to do aswell in conjunction with formal meditation.
I think there is also a sense of vulnerability to his thinking, lectures and writings which kind of jives with the way I myself experienced my own brief meetings with Trungpa in the 1980s and at seminary…..yes for me the quality that Trungpa most embodied was his kind of wide open vulnerability to people and events even as to the risk of his life.
So yes reflecting back to the ‘open dojo’ –if there was a practitioner in there and maybe he/she was practicing martial arts you would have to be very vulnerable and open to win over your opponent. And taking that idea of a samurai with it you would have to have also a notion of how power worked in the world aswell I think both intellectually and in a decisive manner of actually being in the world…..so yes ‘open dojo’ I believe has to be connected to power in some way especially the way where the many will also inhabit it through dialogue as Mark envisages.
Well just some thoughts…..hope the discussion goes on.
Best
Rita
Ps –there is a longer film on the Zapatistas on the wiki article that Suzanne supplied – yes Marcus is an intriguing character –hes been in Chiapas for 12 years I believe and he does have the support of the Mayan people –so yes a great film to watch aswell.
I don’t want to monopolize the Open Dojo with talk of the Zapatistas, who were probably the furthest thing from Mark’s mind when he opened this discussion. However, a strange bit of synchronicity today encouraged me to dig out the lovely, insightful article on the Zapatistas by Rebecca Solnit that was published on TomDispatch almost four years ago, and which I’ve never forgotten. Rebecca Solnit is a respected environmental writer and activist. She went to Chiapas to experience the Zapatistas for herself. Her article “Revolution of the Snails, Encounters with the Zapatistas” may help to correct any misconceptions about them that still linger among RFS readers: http://www.tomdispatch.com/blog/174881/tomgram%3A_rebecca_solnit%2C_journey_into_the_heart_of_an_insurgency
The somewhat amusing synchronicity that led me to dig up Solnit’s Zapatista article is that a new article by Solnit was published on TomDispatch.com on Thursday, Dec. 22nd. Its title is “Compassion is Our New Currency: Notes on 2011′s Preoccupied Hearts and Minds.” Guess what it’s about! Yes! The Occupy movement – and the larger socioeconomic context of it. What Solnit says here about the Occupy movement does relate, perhaps, with the Open Dojo idea:
“Occupy has also created a space in which people of all kinds can coexist, from the homeless to the tenured, from the inner city to the agrarian. Coexisting in public with likeminded strangers and acquaintances is one of the great foundations and experiences of democracy, which is why dictatorships ban gatherings and groups — and why our First Amendment guarantee of the right of the people peaceably to assemble is being tested more strongly today than in any recent moment in American history. Nearly every Occupy has at its center regular meetings of a General Assembly. These are experiments in direct democracy that have been messy, exasperating and miraculous: arenas in which everyone is invited to be heard, to have a voice, to be a member, to shape the future. Occupy is first of all a conversation among ourselves.”
Solnit goes on to talk about a “contagious virus of truth-telling.” To read more, go to http://www.tomdispatch.com/blog/175483/tomgram%3A_rebecca_solnit%2C_occupy_your_heart
A couple of references that may be useful:
- Re Joe P’s questions about Alia Institute, perhaps the best expression of what Alia has been about is my wife’s Little Book of Practice (a free PDF download; I’ve also made ePub (iBooks) and mobi (Kindle) versions).
- We also wrote an article, Occupy Yourself: Lessons for Mindful Democracy (also in Spanish at the dharma|arte site).
Interesting that the Guy Fawkes masks have become one of the icons of #occupy. Also that “dignity” is so often the first word used, by the participants (not necessarily by the commentators) to describe what these movements, now reaching even into America, Russia, and the Middle Kingdom, are about. Occupy feels like a touching the earth gesture of finally acknowledging what is really happening (the “contagious virus of truth-telling Suzanne mentions), a self-witnessing to real global injustice, as the skyscrapers of finance, uncaring greed, and phoney hierarchy collapse. The occupy locales over time become charnel grounds of smart idealists, ordinary ground-down 99 percenters, and damaged, drug-addicted, street people – which our current forms of governance have not been able to deal with. Neither we nor they can be naive about democracy, dear leaders, or too big to question institutions. To that I think it’s important to contribute our best ideas and practice, in the spirit of finding not ourselves, but others, exceptional.
Thank you, Mark, for sharing your and (your wife) Suzanne’s writings that reveal more of the thinking behind the Open Dojo idea. I appreciate having these resources for other situations. Of the Shambhala Summer Institute, Suzanne says, “I have been in awe of the level of coherence that seems to “show up” of its own accord, in spite of the great diversity of people, cultures, and methodologies that come together for that short week. This coherence seems to exist between or beyond the parts as if something bright and powerful is able to shine through.”
To me, Suzanne is reflecting or echoing systems thinking, the slogan for which is, “The whole is greater than the sum of the parts.” I believe a number of leaders in systems thinking have been involved in the Shambhala Institute, so the Open Dojo concept makes sense to me in systems terms.
Thanks also for pointing out that “the Guy Fawkes masks have become one of the icons of #occupy.” This observation immediately reminded me of the suspicion voiced by some people in this thread of the ski masks and kerchiefs that Zapatistas wear. So it’s OK if white people wear the mask of a white guy while protesting injustice, but it’s not OK for brown indigenous Mayan peasants to wear ski masks and kerchiefs?!?
A couple of other ideas you mention in this post resonate strongly for me: “The occupy locales over time become charnel grounds of smart idealists, ordinary ground-down 99 percenters, and damaged, drug-addicted, street people…” And: “I think it’s important to contribute our best ideas and practice, in the spirit of finding not ourselves, but others, exceptional.”
I think this latter is the way the Vidyadhara taught in the West: contributing “best ideas and practice in the spirit of finding not ourselves, but others, exceptional.”
Mark:
[ Re Joe P’s questions about Alia Institute, perhaps the best expression of what Alia has been about is my wife’s Little Book of Practice ]
But…I wasn’t asking about Alia. I was attempting to bring some clarification to your proposal.
Perhaps your response is a lesson in leadership? From your wife’s inspirational missive:
[ Framing is a primary leadership act....
When we encounter a frame different from our own, we can either so-
lidify the boundary between us or be open to the possibility of creating a
new, larger frame together. ]
So critiques could be re-”framed” as questions from students, thereby asserting leadership in a “non-aggressive” manner? …I think I’m catching on.
Psychopaths In Everyday Life
I think this is educational and important.
It’s long so get comfortable and plan to
spend some time if you decide to watch
in its entirety.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6MWpxH-RlFQ
——
Sangha-talk policy: one post per day.
More at http://www.shambhala.org/members/lists.html
Madeline, will be watching that video tonight. Peter Coyote narrating. Very cool.
No I’m not racist, Suzanne. I haven’t expressed an opinion about #ows and their purported mask fixation, so assumptions I think it’s OK for white people to wear them while denigrating non-whites for that is uncalled for and baseless.
And because those dice have been cast: Given the mixed nature of American society, how can anyone be sure only whites wore Guy Fawkes masks? Are they American participants? And out of the tens upon tens of thousands of demonstrators not only in America but all over the world, how many wear that mask? Is it in any real way a representative icon for the vast majority of participants, or of the basic aims at all? I think not.
I support the #ows movement, but find the GF mask one of the creepier manifestations of that, a magnet for aggression, not at all expressing the heart and intelligence that has spawned this movement, so it isn’t particularly surprising mass media has glommed onto it. We don’t need to follow suite.
My thinking is the GF mask has become the #ows’ icon in main stream media in exactly the same way serial killers get catchy names, not because the movement itself is saying that’s what it’s about, but because journalists want a catchy hook. The movement acquiesces or enjoys that to the extent it raises the issues onto a public platform, but at some point I think that will need to be corrected.
Guy Fawkes was only the trigger man for a back-room plot to assassinate King James I and return a Catholic king to the throne… or whatever nefarious intents lurked. We can be sure control of wealth was key, but I just don’t see a popular uprising for a common cause. It was an attempted putsch or coup d’état to remove one figure in favor of another. In England with Guy Fawkes Day it is the victory over such conspiracies, not the spirit of violent revolution, they celebrate.
While I understand the frustration the mask’s theatrical and ritualistic threat may express (which is quite another thing than hiding one’s identity from authorities), it is not the intelligent or relevant part of the movement worth focusing on.
In the inspiration of doing better than mass media in perceiving #ows and other people’s motives, methods, and meaning.
I don’t agree with Mark and Susan’s essay making the connection with shamatha’s power of breaking habitual patterns via mindfulness practice, with the #ows or any political movement. Mindfulness practice helps dice out egoistic tendencies in oneself and our projections of others. But the intelligent relevant part of the movement is not non-conceptual or born from mindfulness practice. It is happening because the suffering and injustice have become not only intolerable, but for many literally un-survivable, and a critical mass of people understand why that is so, and imagine alternatives already.
Rather than a sudden gap or break with the status quo, over a long time, decades at least, a lot of thought and work on a cultural level has occurred: essays, lectures, debates, examinations, journalism, science, books, scandals, film, education, reports, env. and political disasters, exposés, the internet and its contribution to communication systems, etc. have been accumulating and creating a general awareness. When society comes to an impasse like this, we have examples throughout history, eventually, and this is what I think we are witnessing, a critical mass of people will have a good enough grasp of systemic problems, not just “this sucks” but “this sucks because of… “, and then revolution of one kind or another is virtually inevitable.
The #ows movement, rather than a sudden gap, was predicted well over a decade ago, even within Pentagon reports about the results of climate change. The PTB have known this was coming, they just didn’t know exactly when.
Mindfulness practice will be helpful for the things it does (relating to the nature of mind, projection, ego etc.), but without the kind of intelligence generated by thought, general education, science, open debate etc., such a movement would a. never achieve popular support and b. would only be about frustration and destruction. (i.e. the GF mask…)
Mark rightly pointed out the vision of what comes next is essential.
On one hand mindfulness practice. On the other the need and responsibility to explore, examine and define our situation. The first might help dice out P.A. and I. The second will provide the intelligence for sane proactive involvement in the political process.
In the inspiration that clearing the decks is not a matter of aesthetics, but rather to get ready for action.
A good homework assignment might be to look and observe other Buddhist Centers, and see how they suceed (or not suceed) in preserving their lineages.
Our lineage has gone thrugh so many changes since the Vidtdhara’s Parinirvana, it is mind boggling.
If I knew back then what I know now about the changes that would occur within Vajradhatu / Shambhala and our sangha, I probably would hesitate from becomiming a Chogyam Trungpa Rinpoche student. On the other hand, it was Rinpoche, not Buddhism, that made me discover and become a Buddhist.
I hope to not ever go through such a period of transitions in one lifetime ever again. what is the point of tradition if you don’t know what changes will be made from one year to the next?
The idea of lineage is to preserve tradion (and hopefully be flexible).
Yes, the world is changing quickly, which is why we should presrve our tradition(s) more. We want to pass on to future generations not just what we know, but what previous generations taught and practiced as well.
Otherwise, it would be like relearning how to tie our shoes everytime we tie our shoes in a different manner (which would be interesting, but somewhat pointless)…
Dear James, and Rob
James I take your points but I think there is something bigger going on re the formation of an enlightened society which is somewhat beyond the cultural level. One only needs to look at the Arab spring in this regard and to see how the people there were also united in their practice of Islam
Revolution also I do think does not only come about through culture it comes about through faith in the widest sense aswell –in Europe we can look to Luther to embody this dimension and in our own era I dont see how you can separate those most profound philosophers Freire and Illich from their ‘religious’ upbringing.
I think the problem with our secular age is that we dont know how to see, feel the sacred in our world so therefore we are hunting for definitions as to how this enlightened society can come into being beyond the ethos that the present SI organisation has constructed. However in many ways we will have to explore this seeming division in the coming years whether by the meditation process or deep analysis.
Of course I do agree with the division of state and church thats what the Enlightenment gave to the west and that should be protected at all cost, but I also think we need to go further in exploring how the sacred can be manifested in our lives and that I happen to believe at this time in history has to be somewhat a western venture because we are so holed up in materialism.
I also think revolution is not inevitable –it has to be worked at ….the occupy movement has been somewhat crushed in the states and now I dont see that many people taking to the streets-hopefully in the New year this may change and people again may feel more empowered. Taking all these thoughts back to the open dojo ‘concept’….we have to have bigger minds to encompass what could take place if mindfulness truly clicked with the exercise of clear power.
May I also say that I agree with Rob re the rapid changes in SI –there indeed has been little accommodation for everyones different connections to Trungpas teachings and in the west I do not think that is how we are built in relation to connecting to religious and secular practice –there must be left oceans of room to examine ones own personal relationship with the teacher and the practice. Our own philosophical tradition starting with the Greeks does indeed emphasise the individuals priority in seeing and being in the world from his/her own cognizance of it and this attitude is redolent in our history through the democratic process. This connection to democracy I also believe is inherent in the open dojo way of thinking and being.
Well just some thoughts from this side of the pond.
Best for the New year in 2012.
Rita Ashworth
Rob,
I got a kick out of your description of the numerous changes. I can sympathize. But I don’t think the point of lineage is to preserve tradition. Rather, the point is to transmit realization in spite of tradition. The teacher is the teachings. The teacher authorizes his/her heir. (In that vein: The Sakyong is the authorized family heir. It’s not clear to me how he was authorized as the Dharma heir to replace the Regent.)
I’ve been following some of the links from the Alia website: The Presencing Institute, Reos Partners, Alia Institute, Otto Scharmer… Am I the only one here who finds it worrisome that a significant number of the sangha seem to have shifted their efforts to what appears to be a trend of “Dharma-tinged New Age self-development psychology meets Fortune 500″ — teaching high-priced workshops to CEOs? Did I miss something? In my online meandering I find strikingly opaque jargon like “multi-stakeholder process”. (Which means “people talking”, in case you’re curious.) That jargon is peppered repeatedly with buzz words like leadership, process, change, future and Theory U, the diagram for which looks like something that could have come out of a 70s self-help book:
http://www.presencing.com/tools/u-presentation
Yet Mark is proposing this stuff as literally a replacement for Dharma practice. He presents his proposal in the context of being an answer to “how to carry on in the absence” of the Vidyadhara. And since he’s passed on all requests to explain, expatiate, discuss, or debate, I’m guessing that he’s regarding himself as a teacher of this New-Age-meme-set-for-the-white-collar-world in posting his proposal.
The context here, for me at least, is that of how to make for a more “enlightened” world and its society of humans. I have found the concept of “open dojo” helpful in clarifying some issues. This context is secular: “dharma” in perhaps the root sense of that word (how things are), but not specifically in a “buddha” dharma or other religious practice sense. It is not a replacement for “Dharma practice”: I think it’s appropriate to insist that secular “warriors” each have a deep and ongoing non-trivial personal practice, which usually has some flavour of religious basis. My own tradition does not own the space of authentic practice and being and understanding. This happens to be how my teacher, Chögyam Trungpa saw things, and he expressed this quite openly and publicly (as well as, in my case and that of others, directly one on one re this exact specific point).
A question is how we can come from our individual traditions, to discover and present and offer an open space that is civic, civil, not superficial, not ignoring, and not separate from effective action. There is a sense of practice in such a space. It depends on each person’s individual practice of how they hold themselves, but its character and vocabulary and symbolism needs to be an open umbrella, held in common, not bound to any one person’s religious proclivities – including mine and yours. This is a challenge and open experiment. We need to regain our own lineage of humanity, as CTR says in the Sacred Path book, last paragraph of last chapter (titled “The Shambhala Lineage”):
“This context is secular… I think it’s appropriate to insist that secular “warriors” each have a deep and ongoing non-trivial personal practice”
I can see the appeal of what you’re talking about, especially for Shambhalians with enlightened society in mind. But you started by saying that both Buddhists and Shambhalians have had difficulty finding direction since Rinpoche’s death. Then you proposed that ideas like open dojo might fill that perceived gap. You also define open dojo as an idea in a secular context. And in fact you indirectly assert that Rinpoche taught that sangha is synonymous with [secular] society.
You say it’s important for people to have some kind of practice, but that that’s mainly a private issue. The overarching View is open dojo — which defines a responsible citizen, practicing humility, mindfulness and openness, in a healthy, well-oiled society. Spiritual practice only serves that goal or ideal.
It’s quite radical to include Buddhists in such a View-shift, because by implication you’re redefining the ultimate goal of Buddhist practice as a secular/worldly one.*You redefine Buddhism itself by proposing a secular umbrella over it*.
This topic is made murky by vague terminology: spiritual/religious vs worldly/secular. In Buddhism there is path. Worldly issues are interpreted in the context of path, which is spiritual/religious View. You say that you’re addressing a worldly/secular context. No matter how well-motivated and refined a secular View might be, it’s still defined in terms of relative goals within the operation of human society. From Buddhist View, whether we’re active in the world or not, to practice a secular/worldly “uber-View” can never be more than merely redecorating Samsara — and in fact losing sight of the path altogether. Which is why I find it worrisome that not only never-Buddhist Shambhalians, but also older Buddhist sangha, would be getting involved, apparently en masse, in what’s essentially nothing more than self-development psychology.
(I suppose I’m getting at a point similar to James Elliot’s: that path shouldn’t be seen to be on the same level as social structures. The former context can encompass the latter, but the latter cannot even perceive the former.)
I’ve been speaking primarily in the secular, societal context, but it is true that I think the open dojo concept can also be useful in a strictly religious context, in particular regarding the issue of identifying and working with someone you consider a realized being, or at least someone on the way there who is, relative to you, a teacher or master. Specifically, “open dojo” describes the way of being, and even the state/non-state of mind, that such a being ought to have, ideally. This is based on my own understanding and practice, and on having met at least one person who embodied such a state of mind. So the term “open dojo” is one vocabulary for articulating a quality that seems to characterize a more enlightened being.
On the secular side, I don’t think I’m saying anything that isn’t said in the Shambhala teachings of Chogyam Trungpa, such as in Shambhala: The Sacred Path of the Warrior. Buddhism is its own container, with its own “ultimate goal(s)”, over which buddhist teachers may argue. In our world of local and national societies and countries, however, we live with many other people who are not buddhists. I don’t presume that they cannot be authentic and even fully realized beings. And if there is to be political consciousness and discourse that includes all of us, it needs a larger container that allows but does not require specific religious practices. Your personal practice is your own business, though I would go further and say that being a participant and leader in the public sphere demands such practice on your part, so you may better dialogue and recognize open space with others. So your practice is personal, but not a private issue: it affects how you are in the world. Being able to work with your own mind, heart, and perceptions is essential. That can be done in a religious way, but can also be done in a non-religious, though sacred, way (eg, mindfulness/awareness to start with). That’s what Shambhala is about, is it not?
In our time the purely secular as non-sacred bottom line is in visible meltdown, and becoming obsolete. There is widespread realization that dimensions of value, of the good, of excellence, need to be part of our everyday governance and business life, down to the bookkeeping: cf Umair Haque’s Betterness, for example. (… continued…)
As to whether such a view of open dojo as societal practice is “merely redecorating Samsara”… As a buddhist, I recall that “emptiness is not other than form”. Samsara is not the same as the phenomenal world, and practice does not obviate “meditation in action”, including the moving mind of attention, intention, and being in the world.
As a shambhalian: drala is an opening in the phenomenal world through which the cosmic mirror manifests. Paying attention to the details of the phenomenal world, including our family, business, and societal details, is the path to bring down such drala into every moment of our lives. Buddhism does tend to have a slight anti-phenomenality bias, varying with school and teacher. CTR himself obliterated such distinctions: “this very world is the mandala of all the buddhas.” But this is probably a minority view among buddhists.
Re “that path shouldn’t be seen to be on the same level as social structures”: I’m talking about the sacred path of the warrior. That warrior could have a buddhist, hindu, moslem, christian, jewish, or whatever religious path. If they are a true yogi of their tradition, then they could also have a secular/sacred warrior’s path (of “immaculate discipline and unflinching conviction”), and meeting ground, and “archery range”, where they could meet and dialogue and play and govern with other warriors. Such meeting ground is not the religious tradition they hold, but the openness they allow.
Summary: separate church and state, but join secular and sacred. The confusion is in considering the sacred to be purely the province of the church, and the activities of the state (including finance and business) to be purely secular and value-neutral. We are perhaps discovering that the latter is one of those primitive beliefs about reality.
Rita,
Martin Luthor’s an excellent example: that revolution was not his plan, it wasn’t an ideological shift, an awakening, or some other ‘mind first’ sort of thing. It was due to systemic amassing of centralized wealth and power, leading to a critical mass of people adversely affected no longer able to ignore its effects. It is incidental the power was controlled by the Vatican.
His ‘95 These’ nailed to a church door in a small German town echoed throughout Europe, not because of religious insight, but because of fertile ground, made rich by many people talking over years about injustices and what could be done. There were centers of liberalism, but witnessing and discussions were all over Europe, in pubs and houses, town squares and villages, and among sympathetic (or scared) monarchs and dukes etc. If that were not so Luthor would have been burned at the stake and forgotten. It was in no way organized. In some areas there was anarchy and violence. Though Luthor tried, there was no leader to reign it in, no common communication avenues, so it split up, if ever united, into various experiments. (With internet etc. we might see something else on that score.)
That his revolution, or any other, was religious or ideological in nature is in my opinion false. Revolutions are inflamed by the fact that current religious or social dogma and the PTB are blatantly destructive and evil, again, to a critical mass of people. Evil here referring to calculated suffering and death, not heretics. That in turn causes people from all levels of society in grass root ways to rethink things. This is proof of basic goodness, not that religious upbringing produces compassion. It was the critical mass of so many people already having gone through that, which set the stage for Luthor to become a catalyst for literally changing the world.
The Jasmine revolution: “Democracy Now” is my main source currently. Following interviews and discussions about Egypt by people who are there as the dust settles (or is kicked up anew), while some fought corruption, some were involved because they thought Mubarek was too liberal. (!?) If so then it was the untenable suffering that united them, not religious views. In the same way you don’t have to be Islamic to support that movement. There’s something more fundamental or vaster or more universal than religious views at play.
(cont.)
My point was it is education, open discussion, a look at reality unfettered by religious dogma and denial, on a fairly wide social spectrum that brings about paradigm shifts. Ideologies or dogmas that individuals try to instill won’t stick unless they are anyway already intrinsically there (BG, if it isn’t just a political tool, is not “Brought To You By…”).
What I agree with in Susan’s essay is that a break from the status quo is essential. I just don’t think it comes about on a socio-political level through mindfulness practice. Mindfulness practice is something we as individuals work with to cut through our own egoistic instincts and projections, but it isn’t the cause of paradigm shifts nor a way to educate people about what is going on politically, scientifically, culturally, environmentally, legally re injustices and corruption etc., which is the only way such change happens; i.e. when a critical mass knows in their bones, beyond risk to life and limb and career, that political social change must happen.
The question remains, and what is missing in Mark’s essay, is what it is that actually generates Open Dojo environments. Mark, our current systems are NOT free of religion, or purely secular. At all. Whatever the problems may be, that’s simply not true.
As long as we avoid political controversy and gather to work within a common understanding of contemplation with somewhat abstract concepts that don’t really impinge on each other, no problem, but as soon as something needs to be accomplished and there is disagreement, we seem to have nothing to offer. Harking back to medieval styles of governments is not a solution in these times, and we have done zip in exploring any other possibilities.
I’ve experienced the kind of open space Mark and don’t question its value, but see no method for engendering it, other than… we experienced it around Trungpa Rinpoche. That’s not enough. That individuals have to be developed enough to grok such things comes closer Buddhist approaches, but still leaves all dynamics about leadership, government and conflict resolution untouched.
In the inspiration that ‘we’ are not going to make ‘them’ find or acknowledge BG. The problems, on a socio-cultural level lie in any case elsewhere.
Dear James
Thanks for your comeback on by post.
I am not a qualified historian of how the Reformation happened and my knowledge of it is principally based on Owen Chadwick’s book on the Reformation, as an aside I had to study the history of Christianity because I needed it to get into college. But reading this book yes its true there was much disagreement in the way the Catholic church governed Europe especially in the way of selling of ‘indulgences’ – a means of forgiving sins to the general populace. Luther rejected this practice and placed his Protestantism not on works only but also faith. Yes the history of the Reformation I find really intriguing as there were so many attempts to create ‘new’ societies under the auspices of ‘religion’ similar to what we are encountering today. So I still feel that in the realm of the political ordering of society we can not exclude the ‘religious’ dimension totally – this is what I have gathered from my reading.
As to Islam I am not totally familiar with all of its tenets – I only know that when I mix with Muslims in the UK there seems to be a palpable sense of brotherhood and sisterhood that comes from them practicing their religion together much as we do in a sangha and I do believe that their faith does go out much more than Christianity into the ‘political’ realm.
In addition perhaps by default as time passes I am finding myself that what once started as a personal practice to ‘attain’ whatever I thought enlightenment was years ago –has now become a more outer and other-directed engagement with society and people….that Mahayana quality of practice does seem to happen naturally even we dont want it too! So yes there seems almost a visceral desire to stem suffering that develops and in our western context here I think the political dimension enters into this ‘desire’ to provoke engagement/unity. So it is this way that I am seeing the connection between ‘politics’/practice which does connect with the open-dojo concept because I can no longer slice people into groups of who professes dharma and who does not. Everyone is suffering –and it does hit you more and more as time goes on.
As to creating open dojo environments I hope to have many more discussions about this through rfs and other means and principally this is why I am engaged in helping to promote the Buddhist convention in my local area of 300 to 400 hundred people. I do think we need to go into the area of enlightened society more deeply in an analytical sense than we have done before so it is not only SI that is considering these deep questions in large gatherings. Indeed when I glimpsed Marks article I thought wow they are having an Open Dojo thingie in Halifax at last and was quite elated by that rushed thought at first!
Just also as an aside to Suzanne I have been researching the environment more on the internet and I can see now that we are definitely more up the creek than I previously thought-so yes in terms of our discussions of politics we are perhaps being naive but I still believe we shall have to have more connections with others in seeing what is possible to stem our naivety and inevitably this calls for association with the ‘political’ realm and theoreticians of social affairs in my opinion –thats why I am reading left-leaning articles etc etc.
Well best from the UK.
Rita Ashworth
[As to whether such a view of open dojo as societal practice is “merely redecorating Samsara”… As a buddhist, I recall that “emptiness is not other than form”.]
Then why does the form need to be changed? Isn’t it all about View? If our View is worldly then how can our actions not be samsaric?
[Samsara is not the same as the phenomenal world]
Even if you’re trying to improve phenomena?
[and practice does not obviate “meditation in action”, including the moving mind of attention, intention, and being in the world.]
Is meditation in action somehow different from non-action?
I was trying to clarify the View issue, but I’m having a hard time saying it clearly and simply. The point being that there’s a difference between action as expression of awareness and action upon other in a worldly context.
[Buddhism does tend to have a slight anti-phenomenality bias... CTR himself obliterated such distinctions: “this very world is the mandala of all the buddhas.”]
Isn’t that basic Vajrayana sacred world View? In other words, again, it’s not making a statement about the value of the phenomenal world. It’s offering a View to help one fully enter into Nowness without being hooked by sacred/profane value judgements. I don’t see anything there that’s actually about phenomenal world per se. It’s about how to practice with one’s experience.
So, I’m not so much questioning open dojo as an activity. And I’m not questioning attention to worldly detail. Rather, I’m questioning open dojo as a View to be adopted, stressing social action in a worldly context. If it goes to that level then isn’t it a samsaric View by definition? With such a View we amplify the apparent solidity of selves and — as has been seen — we eventually end up descending to the level of the quasi-scientific mess that is the Western self-development psychology marketplace.
Political Consciousness
This is a one page fragment that Trungpa Rinpoche wrote down from a larger text. It’s short enough that you can get all of it (one page) on Google Books (click the link above).
I thought of it, and realized that it has basic definitions of key insights, and that it communicates an awake stance.
From the point of view of this article, “Political Consciousness” is the awareness cultivated through the Open Dojo. It is also what the individual participants cultivate.
Definition: Politics
The entire text is worth reading and discussing, line by line. Having known CTR in Action, so to speak, I can say that this is not just theory, but simple and direct. And it meets the discovery of that that is happening all over the place:
Political Consciousness, The Collected Works of Chögyam Trungpa, Vol. 8, p. 419
Dear Mark
Thanks for this ref…will get Vol.8.
Re the posts up above seems we all seem to think that Occupy is fine so at least that is a basis for discussion. The methods they use in the General Assemblies could be somewhat a foundation for discussing politics in an ‘enlightened society’ with some adaptations.
Reason I put up the Zapatistas was the methods of governance they were using- they seemed to correlate a little with deleks to me and the ‘Z-eers’ were running their own areas quite well.
Been watching a video of Luther –broaching my lack of knowledge –much more in awe of the man now…as a monk for five years he went through so many austerities. He also came to his conclusions about his faith by reading the bible in Latin, Greek and Hebrew –such a linguist!
Re Holloway ‘Crack Capitalism’ nearing the end of the book –main thesis is to have real democracy beyond the institutional level –seems to think when we create institutions we get trapped in our own nutty creations –works a little with the sense of ‘open dojo’ in that power would have to be fluid and kind of never-ending in its circularity. Perhaps also in Marxism they are coming too to the end of the State creating change as a body. Such thought has repercussions about how we will eventually ‘construct’ governance in enlightened society-seems to be imbued with the notion of us all being leaders/warriors. So yes power can not be fixated at any one point….has to be power that is continually under questioning – hmmmmm-could also put here ‘awareness’. Could one refine a Shambhala Declaration in terms of power being of no-fixed abode-interesting.
Looking forward to further discussions….think we do not need to explain to others re this notion of ‘Open Dojo’ any more -we need more to put some notion of its operation out there that would make the discussion go further and not get stalled.
Well best from the UK.
Rita Ashworth
Rita,
You’re on to something with the idea of power structures themselves in flux; not inevitability impermanent, but immediately, intentionally as circumstances and needs change. Might be an element of systems capable of organizing modern societies.
No reason or way to eliminate hierarchy, the most efficient way to organize anything, but it’s equally true when a hierarchy becomes too static it develops anomalies or sicknesses, an inability to respond or various corruptions leading to collapse or disruptive change. That’s biologically as well as politically true. VCTR seemed to infuse his mandala, somehow, with some kind of uncertainty or groundlessness that mitigated individual tendencies to solidify. Can that be done systemically?
FYI, deleks at inception were for a social network independent of particular careers positions or agendas within the mandala. It was a way to de-centraliz or ‘de-hierarch-orize’ the social network. There may have been some feedback loops added on, but that wasn’t the main idea. Deleks were not in any real sense a political structure; one could argue they were by intent NOT that. However, they were also very clearly an adjunct to something larger, everyone’s inspiration and involvement in that, and hence an expression of a unification. Deleks mirrored, ideally, the need for an open communicative social network.
The Zapatistas on the other hand are specifically about NOT being part of their larger government. That may be what’s best for them now, I never said they were ‘wrong’, but what they are doing is marked by separatism and struggle, and so is a questionable model of enlightened government if there is such a thing. The same can be said about some expressions of OWS though there is an understanding of these things to be found as well.
To my eyes, the Zapatistas, as only one example, have encountered the failure of nation state government, and have gone a step backwards to more local agricultural styles of government. With End-Of-Oil that may be what we’re all eventually in for, but maybe we might look for ways to organize within modern society, rather than emulating systems that are in part reactions against, or due to the collapse of, central govt..
In the inspiration that we’re all in this together.
Mark,
With: “Political Consciousness” is the awareness cultivated through the Open Dojo.- I hear what I think a quirk of Shambhala Buddhism, that our milieu isn’t a result of practice, but rather the thing itself which will make others good. Maybe it’s subtle, (I don’t think so but…) in this way we generate the notion that the system itself is the aim of one’s practice, changing ‘it’ or the ‘social paradigm’ in order to bring about a deeply personal and individual enlightenment as well as the happiness of others. Government IS responsible for some very specific things, but not that.
No system will itself generate enlightenment in citizens. Ever.
I have trouble with how Trungpa Rinpoche in that link describes democracy as creating a sense of entitlement. That critique is a little too fortune-cookie, and certainly not what ignited the OWS movement.
I could understand when he at other times critiqued democracy for pandering to lowest common denominators, but ANY government by virtue of its existence will have expectations placed on it: a fascist regime that knows best, communists demanding adherence, socialist universal care, or a monarchy that promises happiness. It either works or it doesn’t and citizens respond accordingly.
His description is also akin to the protestant work ethic, which I don’t have problems with, but on a purely logistical level there are social contracts and interdependencies in modern society which cannot be circumvented with calls for more self-reliance. See Moore’s documentary “Roger and Me” for an example of how complete self-reliance in modern complex society is as mythical as the freedom in “The Myth of Freedom”.
In general, I find Trungpa Rinpoche’s descriptions, as they almost always were, a prescription for how the individual works with mind. On that level I have no argument, but I don’t see anything that gives any clues about systems of government or organization.
I think we are probably on our own there, and as mentioned before something new that hasn’t yet existed will probably have to evolve, capable of organizing a society that is more complex than anything that has existed before. Or we wait for collapse to throw us back a few centuries.
In the inspiration that having expectations of others, leaders, or governments is deeply intrinsic to human nature and important for society.
Dear James et al,
Interesting to read your comeback on my post re structure and your point about the deleks as de-hierarchical system or network is quite profound. It sort of chimes to the philosophers that I am listening to on the net particularly Michael Hardt, an American, who has written a trilogy of books called Empire, Commonwealth and Multitude.
Hope people can take a look at Hardts lecture at the European Graduate School which goes into these ideas http://youtu.be/WgGHzqkDcUo
He is also kind of edging into Shambhala territory I think with his further lecture in 2007 at EGS on Love which he allays with politics as an allied concept. To a certain extent in this lecture he is merging the sacred and the secular- well at least I think that is the case.
I have not read his books but hope to read ‘Multitude’ -but from listening to him on the web Multitude has that sense of a dehierarchical system and refers way back to English history at the time of Civil War where the Multitude was the people who held no property and could not vote but also had immense power in the way that they could affect the war. The Multitude later became the more lefties of that time namely the Levellers and the Diggers.
The Multitude in our present age I take somewhat to be the occupiers and those people who are saying no to the established systems as much as they can under a capitalist domination.
I think the point of the Zapatistas and why Holloway is so interested in them is not that they are separate from the national government but that rather they are saying no to capitalism, to a ‘defined structure’. He sees them as an example of autonomous collective of people providing a new vision of power and how to use it in Mexico. Both Hardts and Holloways thinking to me kind of resound with the way Trungpa used politics and to the sense of the Open Dojo that Mark is describing.
It would be interesting to hear Hardts views on the sense of groundlessness/uncertainty that Trungpa talked about….. as a social theorist he might be able to meld this with politics as he as somewhat done with Love.
Well best and hope the debate goes on.
Rita Ashworth
Rita,
Will look into Hardt.
Two short things.
One, hierarchy is the best way to organize anything. We see it in nature on all levels, and in human activity, even in sentence structure. Without hierarchy we wouldn’t be able to understand each other and nothing would happen, not in the sunyatha heart sutra sense, but literally. The idea isn’t to get rid of hierarchy, that’s impossible, but to stop it from solidifying into one particular view, stance, ideology, approach or whatever.
Perhaps this is key to Open Dojo, that there has to be some space where hierarchy does not reign. That may be the element that creates the magic. We need a space at least within us, and perhaps ‘out there’ if we can afford it (and why couldn’t we?), which is not locked in to a particular hierarchy. If we instead solidify that then our center becomes externalized, and we run into all kinds of problems. Whatever Trungpa Rinpoche said or did could usually be seen in various ways, but I think this may have been one of the inspirations of the Deleg system.
Second, and not unrelated to this, I loved what Trungpa Rinpoche described in the Q and A from Mark’s link:
“I think the notion of a group is very misleading. There is no such thing as a group, actually, but putting individuals together is what makes a group.”
If this is really understood, embodied, then it would go a long way in de-solidifying and de-centralizing whatever hierarchy may be genuinely useful for the task at hand.
In the inspiration of Milarepa’s suggestion that we try to be like quicksilver.
Dear James et al
Thank you for your reply.
Here is Hardts second lecture re Love which plays with the notion of hierarchy in ‘politics’. Its amazing how close he is to the shambhala teachings in my opinion. Really going to have to get that book Multitude.
http://youtu.be/ioopkoppabI
I am even considering sending an email to him re the Shambhala book to see what he makes of it.
Yes of course there is hierarchy but what also makes the whole thing work too is that sense of relaxation/amenability that groups have when people work well together. Conventionally Hardt talks about this in relation to his joy in being involved in revolutionary activity.
So I dont know we might even have to unpack the notion of hierarchy much as Hardt is trying to do in standard politics.
Well best rita
A Glimpse of Thinley Norbu Rinpoche, 16 July 2004
On a bright and breezy summer afternoon I was circumambulating the Puja House at the top of the hill that overlooks Always Joyful Noble Park, while practising Vajrayogini. And just like that, Rinpoche was suddenly stepping out of the Puja House very slowly and very close to me, whispering toward the sky, saying I should practise nicely. Behave normally. Inside can be – what Rinpoche said “inside can be” escapes me now. But outside should be natural or else other people could have conceptions and confusion. Some may say John is a good practitioner. Others may say that he is a phony, he is pretending. Rinpoche doesn’t think this way but others could. Rinpoche can understand but others may not. Not this life’s reputation but fully enlightened buddhahood.
Then Rinpoche sent me past him around the Puja House to continue doing khorwa. I was crushed. Though Rinpoche’s whispering was kind and gentle, it stung like a scolding. What is behaving normally? What is unnatural? I walked on stunned that my behaviour could still be disturbing to others.
Rinpoche left the Puja House and took the grand khorwa path that goes all the way around the park, and I followed Rinpoche. Leaving the path, Rinpoche went toward the lower house. A few minutes later I too left the path and went toward the lower house, and just as I was about to reach the corner where the house and barn are close together, the canopy of Rinpoche’s sun umbrella appeared.
Meeting Rinpoche coming toward me, verging on tears I said that I don’t mean to be phony or to be pretending, and I don’t mean to be causing conceptions and confusion or harming anyone. I mean to be normal and natural. I’m not trying to prove anything to anyone. Anyway there is no me.
Rinpoche asked me where I was going and sent me on my way into the barn. Once inside, I burst into tears for an instant because of the futility of always displeasing and never pleasing Rinpoche and of after all these years to be still hurting others.
Then I sat calmly on a chair a few feet from and facing the door, sensing Rinpoche’s presence remaining nearby outside. Rinpoche’s umbrella appeared in the window of the door. Rinpoche called my name and I opened the door and knelt down eye-level with Rinpoche standing at the foot of the steps…
Rinpoche said I was feeling good about how my practise was going, and said we Vajradhatu people like to call this “vajra pride” and are boasting. But this vajra pride can be penetrated by something like Rinpoche’s criticism saying I am phony and pretending. Rinpoche asked me what I thought vajra pride is; but just then, I couldn’t say.
You say, There is no me, yet you are defending “me” saying you are not a phony and not pretending. Then Rinpoche spoke of confidence, but except for the word “confidence”, the rest escapes me.
I’m not saying that I’m not phony or not pretending. If Rinpoche says I am then I am. Rinpoche can see better than me. What I meant to say was that I don’t mean to be phony and pretending and harming others. And that I have nothing to prove to anyone.
There you are still saying I – I have nothing to prove.
Or then I should say this manifestation has nothing to prove to anyone.
That’s not how you said it before, Rinpoche said.
Then Rinpoche said that since I attacked Rinpoche, Rinpoche attacked me, and that was very good. It shocked me to hear Rinpoche say I attacked him – but Rinpoche gave a thumbs-up, and sent me to the library above the Puja House to pray to Vajrasattva, Guru Rinpoche, Yeshe Tsogyal, Padmasambhava with this emotion and to abide indivisibly, not visualising but just praying to them.
Rinpoche said that it is hard to be a teacher, and that Rinpoche cannot liberate – liberate to the path – for me. Rinpoche may also have spoken of the ideal that is beyond concept. Then Rinpoche told me to write this down, and save it, forever.
Thanks. I wish I had met him.
Wouldn’t it be safe to say tat Shambhala is about accomadating change yet being focused?
Rob,
That would be safe to say. I don’t see Shambhala doing that.
Open Dojo – blind leading the blind?
To blind to see that CTR has reincarnated, but who really cares as long as we have an “Open Dojo”.
Blind
No,- can not be the blind leading the blind –we all have basic goodness, buddhanature whatever –you dont lose that by not belonging to an organisation of whatever ilk.
The sangha can embody the teachings.
As for the present reincarnation of Trungpa Rinpoche in Tibet I am sure he would accept many invitations from people to come to the west but then again some could teach without his stamp of approval here I am sure. Its up to us now I believe how we carry things forward.
Best
Rita Ashworth
“No,- can not be the blind leading the blind”.
Let’s open up a swimming pool to the public were the life guards can’t swim.
That’s your open dojo.
A real dojo has a head instructor with a real black belt.
The white belts don’t run the DOJO.
If ‘It’s up to us how we carry things forward” why this website that bleeds
and bleeds agains “Shambhala”.
Your old dojo is now run by SMR.
Your “Open Dojo” has no one to lead it.
Blind leading the Blind.
It’s up to CTR to lead this dojo not a bunch of white belts who are black belt pretenders.
If you can’t follow the new incarnation of CTR you have BROKEN YOUR SAMAYA, PERIOD!!!!!!!!!
“If you can’t follow the new incarnation of CTR you have BROKEN YOUR SAMAYA, PERIOD!!!!!!!!!”
john: Where did you hear Sakyong Mipham say this?
I get the impression that john is referring to the new incarnation, i.e. Trungpa XII, rather than SMR. So of course SMR would not have said this. Nonetheless, I would argue the whole question is moot. Samaya is not a transferable commodity, much as some would like to simplify it. The idea that “If you can’t follow the new incarnation of CTE you have broken your samaya” is absurd. This is not some medieval system of inherited feudal vassalage, this is about recognizing awake mind, and the potential for one awake mind to enliven another awake mind, like fire being passed from candle to candle. You don’t legislate that. And, in any case, the whole tulku system may have possibly been a skillful means in the Tibetan cultural system, but is rapidly deteriorating on contact with the modern world. Even the Dalai Lama thinks the system will not continue.
Yes Dan I was referring to Trungpa’s new incarnation.
Sorry to say but samaya is transferable but don’t believe me ask a lama or khenpo.
If you had samaya with CTR. your samaya to him and his samaya to you still continues.
If you turn your back on his incarnation then you have broken your samaya and that means VAJRA HELL.
Blind leading the Blind into Blindness.
oh-hum – I thought he was going to be a Japanese scientist this time! Yes where is he really?…..Gone to the fjords some say as in the Monty Python Sketch about the blue parrot……zzzzzzzz…..rita ashworth
“oh-hum……..zzzzzzzzzzzz”.
No wondering why the Tibetan’s are giving up on the west.
Samaya vows broken “oh -hum”.
CTR reincarnation has returned , “zzzzzzzzzzz”.
Blind leading the blind.
Just ask a real Khenpo or Geshe and they will tell you all about samaya and what happens to those who break it.
Trungpa’s back “oh-hum” off to my yoga class.
John hope u enjoy yr yoga….zzzzzzz-exercise!?….I seem to be wallowing in the vagaries of TV CSI Miami(what a plastic place) which seems to me to be very vajra-hellish but interesting– O America!
Anyway getting back to Open Dojo I do believe that there is a call for this way of relating to practice after my last few years out in the sticks of the republic of Mancunia, but its still quite hard to see how this would come about and how it could be radically inclusive, as the ‘concept’ of enlightened society means. It is tentatively approached in the Fromm book that CTR read The Sane Society, but in our age of ‘new-ageyness’ I think we would have to have some parameters as to its evolving….it would be useful if other people besides Mark could tell us what they have experienced re their attendance at the events he mentioned at the Alia Institute. As I will be involved in helping to organise a Buddhist convention myself I am very much interested in discussing elements of the definitive open dojo experience that people had in Halifax….somehow our inherent knowing of basic goodness has to be beyond merely uttering the words and spacing out/in as has recently occurred.
Also too does anyone know what is going on with the Inner Chronicles? Re Ellen Mains comment about this on the Chronicle Project –people seem to really want it to happen…yes can someone really interview Ms Mains –a ‘proper’ journalist….she has much to tell us about her own feelings about things re dharma and shambhala.
Well back to earth with meditation and our openness to the diverse world out there…..rita ashworth, uk.
Oooo! The first Fundamentalist Shambhalian! Yet another sect in formation!
Seriously folks, the Open Dojo is great and spacious, and if we are to meet in it, don’t we need to create a space of mutual respect for all practitioners? How about the United Nations of Shambhala, in which each sect(or) holds a seat? Even fundamentalism has its place. I loved the book Wild Ivy for example; I’m betting Hakuin Ekaku was about as popular in the Zen circles as “john” is here.
http://books.google.ca/books/about/Wild_Ivy.html?id=OtXtWMbkjSgC&redir_esc=y
Suzanne T. wrote: “[T]he Open Dojo is great and spacious, and if we are to meet in it, don’t we need to create a space of mutual respect for all practitioners? How about the United Nations of Shambhala, in which each sect(or) holds a seat? Even fundamentalism has its place.”
I like the United Nations of Shambhala idea. But there ARE some basic principles of decorum that would have to be observed, so that the various fundamentalists would have to draw in their self-righteous horns in order to participate in the celebration of Shambhalian sanity. These principles were well emphasized by the Boss himself, the one who brought Shambhala to us in the first place – you know who.
Ok…how would fundamentalism be in the open dojo…there is that…I expect that there wld still be some kind of parameters that would have to be devised to work with it…open dojo seems to be suggesting a new fundamentalism –fundamentalist democracy where the fundamentalist proper wld have to hear the words of the Other-how would that work for open dojo society….could there be that? If no parameters at first how wld u not have crazy society for some time….has to be some guiding stuff at first I think…. but not so tight as in the past setting them…I think group consensus is evolving ….its the times…open dojo suggests more group to me..as with the notion of Cosmic Mirror….so yes I am breathing in ……ho-hum and I am saying that magic word acacadabara and there u have it society…..zzzzzzz….can we not do better….zzzzzzzzzz…..best from the UK rita ashworth.
Open Dojo to me is more of a congress, an event rather than a single group. It can take place anywhere, at any scale. Yes I guess there must be members, but I imagine the goals, activities, decorum, ground rules etcetera being developed through principles of enlightened democracy (consensus rather than majority-rules, for example).
More on this…. Open Dojo to me is Shambhala culture. Can you call that a group? Who belongs and who doesn’t? Everyone belongs. It is all-inclusive.
We in North America live in a Christian culture now. When will we actually start to bring Shambhala home again? The Congress or United Nations aspect would be a gathering of that culture.
It’s my feeling that we need to restore the term Shambhalian to its rightful place. Shambhala vision, Shambhala culture, is not a church or an organization. To ban others from using it is as absurd as trying to make everyone call Kleenex “tissue.”
We are the tissue. We are the culture. All of us together.
Shambhala International is just one of the tissues. It has its place. Some of us don’t like it now, can’t relate to it now, but we might again next lifetime or the one after that. Osel Mukpo is doing what he can do for Shambhala: “stabilizing” as he put it. For this lifetime that must mean contracting it and compacting it. He can’t do it all. We need to help in our own way, by creating a greater society for Shambhala International to be a part of. Is this “either/or” going anywhere but around and around?
Aha –the greater society….something that we must indeed investigate a la Shambhala and this we have not begun to do so in great detail.
Stabilising, compacting shambhala –well he or others may want to do this but historical process does tell us that this is not what happens with religion/practices/societies . Many have tried to contain ‘traditions’ within society as whole but they have always broken out as far as I can see from studying religion. So this whole ‘enlightened society’ thingie is still a conundrum at the present time….it could in our own times come about in a much more organic way….much as popular culture has done –perhaps this is why some emphasise the shamanistic quality of Bonpos in regard to Shambhala.
Also if one just looks materialistically at the world right now –it is not into compacting fashion……it seems to me that is almost in continual fluid motion as regards economics, fashion, culture/s. Take a walk around any city –people speak –then they check their phones-they are having multiple conversations about everything under the proverbial sun –how any one can compact this is really a great mystery to me sociologically.
Also synchronistically re Johns comment about the blind leading the blind I have been seeing a lot of semi-blind and blind people recently. One lady on the train had her eye right up against the print on the book –fascinating –the length that people go to get knowledge/interact –the phenomenal world is truly amazing ……zzzzzzzz……..
….so yes again I think open dojo should be about exploring freshness with the aid of meditative process….yes what I am calling for is more freshness, experimentation – therefore for the time being we could be – ‘either’- I think –we need the time to explore and not be defined –this I think is what the times are telling us re the upheavals in society generally-it also means being true to your own touching into basic goodness….well best rita ashworth.
Shambhala – ah yes.
But which Shambhala?
How about the Kalachakra Shambhala.
After a world war in the year 2424 the Buddhist Shambhala army has killed billions to conquer the world.
Then you will have your United Nations of Shambhala, but first billions of people must die.
Blind just Blind.
OK. Whatever. For what it is worth, I was talking about now not the future and I was talking about a simple way to advance the dialogue not some world domination plan.
“OK Whatever”
That is the core of both Shambhala and the Kalachakra teachings.
They are a road map of the next 412 years for the followers of Shambhala and the Kalachakra.
Ever hear of the Shambhala army.
Not the Shambhala peace core or the Shambhala United Nations of Dialogue.
No, its a “ARMY” for a reason.
Blindness?
Just personally speaking, I’m into the peace corps and united nations of dialogue idea.
Sorry for my blindness, one does one’s best…
Suzanne….ditto…I think people inside of religious/secular orgs. are thinking in the same manner from my own interactions with them…they can see that the structures of our society’s norms are weakening their hold on how we live…hence open dojo/occupy and the revival of interest in anarchism.
I also believe that there is cross-cultural dialogue taking place now more in the political/ philosophical context than in the religious/meditational realm –check the occupy movement on utube-people across the globe are working on political action. Methods used in this movement could be used in our dialogues as well – why does not Alia Institute get radical and start inviting people from the Zapatistas, Occupy and other movements to its sessions and weeks –we need to learn from the experiences they have had on the ground.
Now how you are going to do this dialoguing re meditation is quite complex as people seem to fixate themselves in religious bubbles when they enter this realm of thinking/being so to some extent people will have to step out of these bubbles but with forms that are not too extreme or then things would break up in quick fashion. So I am kind of looking for the forms that this could be done in-thats why mainly I still post on rfs.
In addition to dialoguing no one group could hold the balance of power in debate so there would have to be ways devised of all the followers of a teacher/practice having representation. I was thinking back to the convention on the Regent that was proposed in the 90s where even then people were going to load it with people from their side of the fence.
Yes and at the present for myself and perhaps for others it’s good to somewhat distance myself from hierarchies that impose their structures from the top-up approach because there are aspects of these systems that lead you into outdated modes of thinking which are fast disappearing in our present connected world. I need to think for myself on these matters yet again and begin to see what I could work with and what I could not.
But I do think we need more dynamic processes to interact with each other – yes although the co-operative Christiana community in Denmark is debunked by some – I did see a video where a young mother was describing her life growing up there –she stated she had to develop a kind of collective mind about being and working with others-so yes that was highly interesting to me in relation to practicing meditation itself. So yes to some extent even by default –people in intentional communities do develop deep awareness of the Other….now how this could be transposed into a ‘United Nations’ approach could be discussed in tandem with ideas of societal change aka communities developing in our western world…well just some initial thoughts on yr posts. Best rita
There’s something I’m uncomfortable with in the idea that various groups or factions need to be ‘represented’. I don’t think the need for representation is a solution for what I see as problems within Shambhala, for a couple of reasons.
First representation has no meaning if there’s no corresponding political clout. Congresses, work groups and all the rest of it, but the organization is set up as a dictatorial mandala with all permissions or blessings coming only from one center, then ‘representation’ is merely theater intended to qualm dissent.
Second, although I think representation is important for any non-dysfunctional society, I’m not stuck on that happening in a specifically democratic form. Even a monarch, if he’s compassionate and skillful, collects information from all around about the welfare of the people, and in a real sense that is representation. Democracy merely has advantage in that if things go awry one can do something, but as we can see in America or modern democracies, we are still very much ruled by an elite.
And lastly, it feels too political. I’m not anti-politics at all, but the notion that whatever we are doing in the realm of politics is either ‘Shambhalian’ or not, is I think a form of judgment which ultimately and inevitably leads towards a more abstracted and intractable form of religious judgment, for or against whatever agenda based on a feeling? or that it’s like more Shambhalian? because of how it makes me feel? I don’t know exactly, but am certain that the glowing clean or relaxed feeling one gets from meditation practice, is not a basis for judging external reality.
We can’t judge our political aims, goals, actions needs and so on based on that sort of emotion. Watching the GOP debates, not to say we are the same, but as an example of how well emotions steer the bus, I had to agree with Fidel Castro that it was the biggest display of ignorance and stupidity in the entire world. Because they are all arguing on an emotional level, and with total disregard for realities more fundamental than ideology. Like children.
The reason for these complaints, John, is that something more basic than ideology is being neglected. I would also bet the repetitive nature of it all subsides when one relates to what actually needs attention, rather than propping up or shooting down ideologies.
In the inspiration of clay pigeons
Dear James et al,
Actually in my last post I dont think I mentioned democracy once but I am interested in searching for forms of engagement where all views and experiences could be heard if you do not trust the term ‘representation’. So to me this does fit the idea of the open dojo which Mark is throwing out for us to discuss. So yes it is quality of being heard which to me at the moment does seem to be more at the forefront in the ‘political’ sphere outside of conventional politics. There is much about the inchoateness of the occupy movement that is refreshing and I think it does call for us to examine our own politics in the broadest sense in terms of the shambhala teachings.
Of course we could go round and round discussing definitions of politics but I think there has to be some practical element of people discussing and deciding on how they are to run their society ….it still seems to me that some form of this ‘experience’ will have to embodied in an enlightened society for it to get anywhere and then of course melded with this would be meditation.
I do think ‘collective mind’ comes about with others –listening to people in the last few years and seeing and reading stuff on the web and doing theatre – I am convinced that aspects of this sensation can be transposed into the practical ‘political’ sphere. So open dojo first does have that quality too of mind meeting mind devoid of labelling and then…… so I dont know…. perhaps first we have collective mind and then we have politics….for we are living on this earth…so maybe thats the heaven, man, earth thing. And to me I just can not hedge it in to an ultimate defined form initially –thats whats too defining about Shambhala Buddhism….if we are to get back to the inclusivity or collective mind aspect of the teachings….so maybe the United Nations metaphor came up because Suzanne was trying to glimpse a kind of bigger way of relating to Mind/governance than is happening at present. Just a thought.
Re propping up or shooting down ideologies….was trying to think more deeply than that to get to the sense of what could be the case re the notion of embodying principles of meditation/mind in governance…..so very much interested in forms that ‘create’ some sense of unity/cosmic mirror from both western/eastern perspectives. However, now with the proviso, more as I go on thinking that we shall have to use more western aspects than eastern because we are so materialistic in the west.
Well best rita.
Dear Open Dojo:
A star is born on earth, her name is fukushima, meaning “end of time”
Sky is tsunami, hot dust floods the hemisphere, science betrayed us
Invisible volcano belches constant invisible plume of nuclear particles
Machinery fails, the truth of impermanence is that everything fails
Reactors only work as long as the matrix of conditions are perfect but
Now the natural world is wrecked by the impermanence-deniers
Now this world system is toxic waste, as much an extinction event
As the impact of an asteroid of ignorance, time of living hell on earth
Now the mission is palliative in nature, let us help comfort our planet
Dear Dawa Chöga, Ah, yes, resonate I do with the truth of what you say. You’ll get no sarcastic backbiting from me, only thanks for raising the bar for our contemplations. Yes the mission at this time is now palliative in nature, but methinks that comforting our planet means relating much more intimately, nurturingly and sympathetically with all wild things than our culture has conditioned us to do. Getting other life forms to stick around is going to be the challenge if humanity wishes to survive. We have turned the tables on ourselves. Now paradigm change is imperative, no longer a choice. Om Mani Padme Hum Hrih!
I appreciate the way you expressed that, Suzanne.
One of the things we can all do to help is to stop our fellow creatures.
If we stop supporting the factory farms, there would be no market for the billions of animals suffering horribly, and it would help slow down climate change tremendously. Vegan diets are healthier, too.
We could also stop supporting the exploitation of our fellow creatures for sport, clothing, research experiments, entertainment, etc.., and instead, just honour them and care for them.
typo correction from last post – I meant to say that we can stop *eating* our fellow creatures.
The world has gone from “progress” to “sustainability” to “survival” in 60 years…
Rita,
I was responding to the general notion of representation as a solution towards or as an element of open dojo.
We need representation for participation in society; fairness, rules of engagement, business, laws, justice, conflict resolution of all kinds and so on. But I don’t know that it makes sense or is even possible for representation in politics for my particular beliefs, whatever they may be in the moment… which is a major crux of the problem. Beliefs change not only due to neurotic caprice, but as a result of one’s personal and individual development in worldly or in spiritual matters. One might even say spiritual work is about changing or unfreezing beliefs, not about locking them in to a certain structure with a particular result in view.
My interest in this particular thread, is to eke out any practical ways to engender ‘Open Dojo’. I know what Mark’s referring to, have experienced it and not only on Shambhala premises, a sort of unity in spite of whatever hierarchy is happening for whatever reason. And which is also not beholden to special interests; like if you agree with us you are good, if you don’t you are bad’. That is fairly easy to engender when like minded people gather.
The challenge is to be able to do that when people don’t agree about everything. We can see within Shambhala International there is a polarizing tendency to religious beliefs, in my opinion due to beliefs being used in political ways, which is the case when beliefs become the litmus test to one’s involvement in any way more involved than paying dues.
As well meaning and as good as advice is that we heal the planet or become vegetarian may be I don’t see what that offers in a practical way to how you or we or they can engender Open Dojo. Is it based on a hope or wish that it will come about through magic, or when we all believe the same sorts of things (ditto)?
I don’t trust that anymore. There has to be practical real world ways to engender Open Dojo, to care for each other whether enlightened or not, or are we simply talking about another epiphanic religious experience accessible only for the select few who have set their sights on genuine absolute complete enlightenment, but which seems to have little or no political value?
In the inspiration that unity is never engendered through exclusivity.
How about unity under the incarnation of Trungpa Rinpoche or should we forget all about him and only think about an “Open Dojo”.
Talk , talk , talk about everything under the sun except the return of your “Beloved Teacher?”.
Vows Vows Vows
All broken but who cares anyway.
Dear James,
Thanks for your post….the forms that are interesting me now re ‘Open Dojo’ motif seem to be theatre, particularly Augusto Boals work ‘ Legislative Theatre’, which does engender at times a ‘sense’ of unity-so re theatre and the fundamental experience of dynamic space perhaps this is why Trungpa taught Mudra initially when he went to the states to get that sense of getting beyond ‘beliefs’. And consequently maybe out of that brimming space comes a sense of connection with fluid power. So the King element would have to be a very much 360 degree force –reacting in space to what is.
Yes, Mudra was much concerned with the group working together so you could not call it a sole epiphanic experience, but maybe something deeper as regards unity did happen-would be interesting to hear from people who partook in those early sessions with Rinpoche. Perhaps even then when he taught this discipline he was thinking of enlightened society-just a thought.
Re the Occupy movement yes I agree at times it looks like a floundering mass of people going towards some Notion of the Good, but what in essence interests me about it is the sense of questioning and use of space that is going on-such questioning is more outer-focussed than is usual for an acquisitive society as the States – so I dont know could there also be some sense of quasi-unity developing there –its all quite intriguing this kind of thought movement that America is flooring as a nation –it must be quite shocking and unsettling to a lot of people –so very much a cutting of habitual thought patterns. I imagine this notion of The End of ‘US’, is why SI maybe getting loads of people to its huge ‘gatherings’ –they must think that some one has The Answer to the way out of all this Mess-sadly myself – I think culture does not turn like this…it comes out of more an engaged process which challenges the emotions and the Mind so that the Observer is drawn out of his/her own subjectivity into the greater world out there….so yes very much the existentialist position (perhaps another reason Satre wrote plays also).
Agree practicality is important re the structuring of a society, but the practicality must be dynamic I think from what I am reading in western philosophy at present –this is why I think Holloway and Hardt, who seem to me to follow on from Fromm, are interesting figures in positing the end of the state and institutions -anyway have ordered Hardt’s book ‘Multitude’ to get a sense of where he is coming from in regard to a large grouping of people using power in a different manner- and of course the Multitude in those days of the British civil war were composed not just of the standard religios of the times but many people questioning the status quo. In addition I am also just visiting areas in my own locality to see where the co-operative movement was born –this may aka Fromm also have implications about how you could construct a ‘practical’ enlightened society.
Well I do hope some other people can step into this debate aswell re the notion of inclusivity because this to me seems to be the essence of the Shambhala teachings, in fact it has to be the case because you can not bind power in certain forms as SB is trying to do – Power/Drala seems to me to be more transformative, malleable, dynamic a thing-than the ‘precious’ limited notion of King displayed now in the centres-yes not my notion of King/Power – I definitely have other ideas about all that due to my past/recent experiences.
Well best,
Rita Ashworth
[An excerpt from Talk 2 of Dzongsar Jamyang Khyentse Rinpoche’s “The Chicken and the Egg”, teachings on karma and cause and effect given in Los Angeles, CA, August 19-21, 2011]:
…
ALL APPEARANCES ARE ILLUSIONS
Right now people like us have no tolerance or patience for the fact that everything is emptiness. We cannot tolerate the emptiness; basically, we shun and have an aversion to the truth. We like the comfort zone of illusion, and why? It is because of a lack of understanding or only partial understanding of cause and effect.
Not understanding makes us so naïve and easily tricked. Ordinary people and religious people alike can accept that certain things that appear such as a dream, mirage or rainbow are illusions; this much we can accept. But it’s harder to accept that not just some appearances but all appearances are illusions.
Most worldly sciences and philosophies make the error of reaching a conclusion or thesis or answer; in other words, choosing to believe either the chicken or the egg came first, in effect. It doesn’t matter whether it is an almighty god or an almighty atom, almighty chicken or almighty egg: we always end up believing in an almighty view.
So then the ultimate truth beyond views and beliefs is simply ignored. We just don’t want to let go. It’s so difficult, understandably, to contemplate giving up all views, especially since we rely on a view of self as proof to justify our belief that we exist. So clear understanding of karma is crucial to understanding the Buddhist wisdom of emptiness.
…
DJKR on beliefs, ibid.
…
The most essential technique of both mahasandhi and mahamudra is to let go of every conclusion that we cherish. As long as we cling to any temporal or spiritual conclusion or decision, we are on shaky ground. Do you know why? Because every belief we have about the ultimate truth is no more sure or secure than a house of cards.
A belief is a compounded phenomenon, and whatever is compounded can’t be trusted as an undeceiving object of refuge. That a belief is compounded means that it is composed of the causes and conditions that the belief depends on. This means that beliefs are subject to change since whatever depends on conditions is inherently unstable. If the conditions change, the belief changes. Compounded phenomena like beliefs may appear to be strong, stable and permanent. But they are neither strong nor stable nor permanent. A belief is as insecure as a house of cards. If even one reason for believing in a belief changes, a belief will collapse instantly.
…
“If even one reason for believing in a belief changes, a belief will collapse instantly.”
Not so sure about that one. Seems to me that most of the time, belief trumps facts, in that no matter how much evidence one might be shown to the contrary, usually a belief holds and that evidence is diminished, then quickly relegated to a cognitive filing cabinet somewhere never to see the light of day again.
Indeed, I think the main purpose of conventional religion is to channel the cognitive-emotive predisposition to fashion mind into a belief system of sorts so that we all share one with similar experiences and vocabulary, thus creating a more well knit society. If leadership and followership are intelligent, sincere and mean well, a good time is had by all, and life’s many purposes, promises and blessings are enhanced, wisdom and virtue increase etc. If not, then the opposite, but in any case, when one or more are gathered together under any tent with any name, beliefs are in their too, in every fold of fabric, cut of cloth, turn of phrase, wink, joke, sermon, flirt, command or bowl of soup. Beliefs wink at you whether you think you have one or not.
That’s what I believe, anyway!
Dear Ash & John(C),
I am not sure about this ‘belief thing’….think for myself religious ‘experience’ goes beyond belief in that it is immediate, uncontrolled, and dynamic.
It is only after religious experience, for want of a better phrase, that one has some sense of how to follow ones path, maybe this is why you then get the Four Noble Truths and the Eightfold Noble Path which are more codified matters. So yes the Buddha is awake then he has to some how relate that to people living on this earth so then we get the various teachings.
In Religious Studies there is very much a debate that has been going on for ages re beliefs/believing – I somewhat remember reading about it at college in a book called ‘Religious Understanding and Religious Belief’(I think by Braithwaite tho I am not sure completely of the author).
For today generally in terms of modern religious understanding beliefs persay are heading out the door and the emphasis does seem to be on experience and spirituality in Christianity and Buddhism. So again re the open dojo –the main point would be one would have to relate to it somewhat without conventional beliefs religious or otherwise….so yes the open dojo would very much have to be seen in terms of ‘experiencing’ space itself.
If you could offer a deeper meaning of belief perhaps in terms of devotion that might fit a somewhat emotive connection to practice.
As for ‘followership and leadership’-not terms I would use ‘follow’ is a little distant….one would have to be even closer to the teacher than these terms allow…so again devotion comes in here again which is not exactly following.
Well best
Rita Ashworth.
Well, I think belief can go very deep. For example, most of us ‘believe’ that the three-dimensional world interpreted through our cognitive-sensorial intelligence is real and solid.
When all is said and done, no matter how powerfully self-evident it seems to be, ultimately it is just a ‘belief’. That is perhaps an extreme and also, understandably, debatable. But the same type of faculty that knits together how we perceive ‘reality’ is at play as the same one that perceives/tells/hears stories, narratives, explanations, ideas, visions, dreams, explanations, relationships, customs, cultural mores and all the rest of it.
You cannot walk in a tribal jungle without seeing your belief system mirrored back in the eyes of various animals, in the cries of various birds, in the bites of various insects. Similarly, our urban world is peopled with reflections of our own perceptions, aka ‘beliefs’, including shared sense of time, mundanity, role and function of human life, role of machines. The labelling on a package of cereal trumpets various materialist, utilitarian and commercial belief systems which are instantly transmitted and received by most of us, often without our either noticing or knowing.
Which is why ignorance is the most difficult of the kleshas to transmute, and why tantric types for millenia have preferred the more controversial, but also more colourful, passion to work with, with aggression a close runner up for all those who refuse to learn how to have a good time.
Just saw the movie “Crazy Wisdom the life and times of CTR”.
Did this film show that CTR was a great teacher or that he was the head of a CULT?
Was this film done by SMR and his Shambhala organization?
I showed the Youtube documentary to a retired federal intelligence officer who worked cults.
He saw the doc. five times and stated that in his expert opinion that has be accepted up to to the Federal Court of Appeal that CTR was a CULT leader.
He asked me if the person(s) who did this film was in fact secretly exposing CTR as a CULT.
He also saw the dvd, “Tulku” and said he would have to research the laws in Scotland to see if CTR engaged in the act of “Statutory Rape” by having sex with a girl under 16 years of age.
He stated that it appears that Diane Mukpo was under the legal age of consent and that CTR could have committed the crime of “Statutory Rape”.
Things that made me go HMMM!!!
Yeah….great…go ahead and get nowhere…..
That movie is going to prove Trungpa Rinpoche’s mandala was a cult ?
Wow…that’s really beyond absurd… Any amount of money you want to bet…any odds.
Did Trungpa engage in “Statutory Rape” of an under aged minor girl?
Yes Or No.
If its YESSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSS.
Well John Tischer is it Yes or is it no or are you just going to duck that question?
Is it OK for a Catholic Priest to seduce a 15 or 16 or 17year old girl???
Is it OK for a Catholic Priest to seduce his female followers?
No its not.
So is it OK when a Rinpoche does it?
Sorry, I forgot that “ENLIGHTENED ACTION” by any “ENLIGHTENED MASTER”.
Sounds like a CULT, walks like a CULT and certainly talks like a CULT.
So did CTR engage in “Statutory Rape”?????????
Is Trungpa just another Catholic Priest is Rinpoche’s Robes?????????????
Are you, all of you in a CULT????????
I’ve experienced it enough to have an inkling that anyone who’s accusing others of breaking samaya, (March 28) wants only power or control; they want to lord it over the people they accuse in some way or other. Samaya is a relationship, a vow, a bond between a teacher and a student, with a very specific aim. Any other uses of it are at best beside the point.
In the inspiration of discriminating wisdom.
Ash wrote:” the main purpose of conventional religion is to channel the cognitive-emotive predisposition to fashion mind into a belief system of sorts so that we all share one with similar experiences and vocabulary, thus creating a more well knit society”. So see a majority of religious and political leaders their task, but that’s also why so many have left the church in dire straits and why politicians have the reputation they’ve earned.
Ash is right that religion, if it is a genuine contemplative tradition, if it has any real and lasting value works with our tendencies and emotions in some way, but he’s wrong that the aim of that ‘work’ is our all thinking in sort of the same way. A lot of us groked what that’s about, and is one of the main reasons many of us found refuge with Trungpa Rinpoche. That is not what he was doing.
There are so many studies in various disciplines about the instinctive and deep rooted falicies of group think, it ought to be common sense. Rather than harmony (or the security of numbers) an attempt to engender or maintain ‘sameness’, even within mindless biological systems, instead breeds weaknesses, vulnerabilities, limitations of independent thought and action, a kind of stupidity or even pathologies, a dearth of creativity, honesty and ultimately instability in any group that demands it.
With a note that our cultural milieu and beliefs are not identical, I agree with the quotes John C. posted. There’s more to it all than whether we believe our beliefs or not, but beliefs are inherently unstable. They shift like the proverbial feather in the wind dependant on advantage or danger we encounter, on our mood or last meal, whether we are in love or stressed, friends or enemies and so on.
Big beliefs can change too: when a parent who is anti-gay discovers their child is gay, when Trungpa Rinpoche renounced his robes, when the Ronin’s brutality became a search for truth and that dissolved too, when a parent sees their newborn child the first time, when a parent dies or we encounter firsthand the suffering of others. If in certain situations we don’t let go of certain beliefs, if there is no change, then we aren’t paying attention.
In the inspiration that awareness and transformation, regardless whatever conclusions or beliefs one employs for the moment, is much closer to the dharma Trungpa Rinpoche taught, than crowd control.
I’m sorry but was that a Yes or a No to my question?
Most people would say yes or no but people in a cult can’t.
Well how about was CTR a drunk , an alcoholic who died an ugly death at 47 years.
No no no , our beloved CTR wasn’t because if he was then we followed a lie, we were in a cult.
If the person was a Catholic priest the answer is simple.
Yes or No.
Yes or No.
Drink, yes, which you can’ understand….sleep with his students, yes, which you can’t understand…rape? No.
Also, people were free to leave the sangha whenever they wanted….no one ever harassed anyone who decided to drop out….and many did. John, you’ll never be able to be close enough to what happened to be able to see it clearly…and you can label it a cult or what ever…means absolutely nothing at all. Nothing.
How about quity of “Accesory to Murder”?
A Catholic Bishop finds out that his second in command has HIV and is having sex with both male and female followers.
He tells his second in command to do 10 hail marys and 10 our father before having sex with them again and they will not get HIV or AID.
Followers get HIV and AIDS and one dies.
Should the Bishop go to jail for counsel to commit a felon crime and aiding and abetting and accessory to murder.
Not if he is Charle Mansion Rinpoche or Jimmy Jones Rinpoche or Trungpa Rinpoche.
No CTR is a living Buddha.
Please this is a cult leader plain and simple and your are in a cult.
But if you admit this your must admit that your life was lived in a cult.
I admit that you are an angry person whose anger is based on rumor and innuendo of a subject you have no personal experience of and is therefore
to be completely discounted. What you’re really doing here is making yourself look like a fool. All the best, John
Dear anonymous “john”:
Suppose you’re right and you are some kind of genius who has figured out the insidious roots of this cult. And suppose that everyone who has a heart connection to Trungpa Rinpoche is a victim of brainwashing, including H.H. the Gyalwa Karmapa XVI and H.H. Dilgo Khyentse Rinpoche’s whose judgement of character you must feel is inferior to your own righteous indignation. Where does that leave us?
What exactly is your motivation here? Do you wish to deprogram the hapless victims of this mass brainwashing out of a wish to liberate them/us from confusion? Is your motive a compassionate motive? If so, then you’ll have to change your method because your rage against the guru and sangha only alienates the very people you are supposedly trying to enlighten.
You are so worked up. You seem to be seething and looking for the cause of your terrible suffering. And you have fixated on the corrupt guru and the corrupt disciples as the cause. But in the end you are still suffering the pent-upness of your anger, and the victims of brainwashing are still suffering the effects of brainwashing.
So who actually benefits by your expression of rage? If your motivation is truly compassionate, you will have to find a more skilful way to gradually remove the scales from the eyes of the clueless disciples.
Do CTR and his Regent Osel have the BLOOD of that dead follower on their hands?
You call me a fool.
Did Charle Mansion Rinpoche and Jimmy Jones Rinpoche have sex with their followers?
Were Charlie Mansion Rinpoche and Jimmy Jones Rinpoche addicted to alcohol or drugs?
Do Charlie Mansion Rinpoche and Jimmy Jones Rinpoche have blood on their hands?
Do they remind you of anyone.
I BET they do remind many ex followers of CTR.
Do you want to have your bet with all of us that this is a cult?
If I am a fool what does that make you.
A man in DEEP DENIAL.
Having sex with a person under a certain age is called “Statutory Rape”.
Joe, its called “Wrathful Compassion”.
I don’t believe in “Idiot Compassion”.
But you can’t de cult and person in a cult until they come to their senses.
You have no idea if what anything you’re saying is true…..your just a sorry
ranter…you provide no proof…what do they call people like you? Troll?
stewing in your own juices….. I really feel sorry for you….
You don’t seem to be making it as a human very well maybe you should get down on all fours and try to make it as a dog…there are plenty of dogs here in Mexico that howl all night…no one knows why, including the dogs…you’ll fit right in!
dear john,
my questions are not rhetorical! i expect 5 answers if you dare! and re so-called “wrathful compassion”, beginners like us should only practise gentle compassion and leave wrathful compassion to realised beings.
How did Osel DIE?
How did Trungpa DIE?
How did his now dead follower die of and from whom did he receive this special AIDS BLESSING from.
How many followers received that special HIV blessing.
The more you write the more you show the world that you are in a cult.
I really feel sorry for you TOOOOOOOOO.
Joe
You are engaged in an old act of not making the question about the message the only issue.
The old trick is to start asking questions about the messanger.
An old trick.
Stick to the message and not the messanger.
there just is no talking sense to a drunken unrepentant baby-shaker who tells himself it is wrathful compassion to make the baby stfu…
ARRRRoooooooooo!!
There are still followers of Jimmy Jones Rinpoche.
There are still followers of Charle Marsion Rinpoche.
There are still follewers of Trungpa Rinpoche , 25 years after he died from drinking himself to DEATH.
Want to know the SECRET Mantra that Trungpa gave to Osel so he would or is that wouldn’t infect others with his HIV?
Its the same SECRET Mantra you use when you put a load gun to your head and pull the trigger.
One Mantra works faster then the other but the results are the same.
Sorry Joe for being so unskillful but what have you done to help these people.
I am trying are you, or is your thing to just watch a train wreck.
little john,
When people try to respond to you rationally, you come out with the same ridiculous club and try to head people over the head with it again….you
need a soap box and a street corner, boy….you don’t listen….Arrroooooooo!!
What mantra did Trungpa give you.
Hopefully not the same he gave to OSEL.
It’s a KILLER. LITERALLY.
Sorry have to go and wash out this silly diluted mind.
Hay its Jimmy Jones Rinpoche at my door with his special KOOL AID.
Lets all have a drink in Trungpa’s memory and his great successes.
You’re having fun, john, that’s all….I’ll give you the benefit of the doubt and say this whole play here is for your entertainment….Arrrrrrooooooo!!
John’s rants have been a bit rough. Then again, so were some of the responses he elicited. Not quite sure what he expects to accomplish. On the other hand, the things he’s said are not wild allegations. Pretty much public knowledge. Perhaps it’s easy to dismiss someone who comes across as an angry ranter (a “troll”?). If the criticisms were communicated in a less wrathful tone, what would the response be? I’ve never seen a coherent logical response to the things he (and others) said (i.e., the drinking, sex, HIV, etc.). And I never thought that silence or chalking it up to “crazy wisdom” were meaningful responses. Anyone can do that. As much as those who were there might not like it, that does indeed give the whole thing the appearance of just another cult. If it walks, talks and quacks like duck, then… Trying to be skeptical, non-judgmental and objective can be a challenge. I’d love to see a well-thought out response from one or more of his followers (instead of “I was there and you weren’t.”). Maybe nobody cares. Maybe some do. No big deal.
Well thats interesting,and it is a problem,but it is one that each being has to work out,some times beyond logic,which cannot be spoken,or heard as logic…that is why it is recommended that one should find a teacher,a teacher that you have a Karmic connection with,you will have to trust your mind,and heart about that……CTR is a teacher for really stupid people like me,but perhaps not for John,which is ok,if john see’s a cult that is ok as well for him to see that,if beyond that then the big’”NO” is proclaimed…but sometimes the big “NO” is beyond logic….I am sorry I cannot be of help,sometimes I could not explain my teachers actions he was not mine alone his messages where to others,he taught me the meaning of love for all beings,I might say a hard lesson,but then I was as dumb as a bag of hammers,perhaps I still am….love remains…as for cults could not care less
Michael,
I agree that these are important topics. I wasn’t around in VCTR’s day but for what it’s worth (probably not very much), here is my contribution to answering your question.
Firstly, about the Regent issue: all of that very much disturbs me. That’s all I can say, since I wasn’t there and don’t know anything first-hand. But it definitely raises important questions surrounding the nature of power in Tibetan Buddhism and Shambhala.
Beyond this, re: drinking and sex, I think it’s important to keep both “sides” fully in view. I personally don’t think Shambhala is doing a good job of that today; it seems to me to have become rather puritanical and suspicious of enjoyment, especially ecstatic enjoyment, anything outside the “average” “norm.” Confucianism’s increasing influence I suppose, Taoist and Vajrayanic energy in decline. ?
I can’t say I understand why VCTR drank *that* much, and I do understand how, from the outside, it certainly can appear that he was addicted to alcohol. I don’t feel I can comment on that with regard to someone of his stature. All I can say is that if we have divested ourselves of the view that intoxication is a “bad” thing in any way, all we are left with seems to be the question of whether or not he “did his job” as a teacher, as a guru, and whether or not he caused anyone any harm through his drinking. It seems he shortened his life (and we could debate whether or not longevity in and of itself, from the vast perspective of innumerable lifetimes, trumps this or that other value), but beyond that? I don’t happen to drink even remotely to that extent, but so what? There are others who don’t drink at all and would view the three margaritas I put away last night as excessive. Again aside from the question of harm, it seems to me an entirely relative matter, certainly not a moralistic one.
(cont.)
(cont.)
Ditto for sex. Will our culture ever shed its collective hypocrisy about it? I feel we’re actually getting even more confused by the decade… VCTR’s sex life does not strike me as a “moral” issue. Personally, I wish he’d have embodied in that area the teachings on non-duality, non-preference, one taste etc and slept with males as well as females sometimes. I think that would have been a powerful teaching. Beyond this, I can’t comment. Sex in and of itself is good and pretty much everyone knows it–it depends solely on what we do with it obviously. It can be harmful in the usual ways. And in far less commented-upon ways too: people can be warped through *not* experiencing any physical closeness and warmth for too long while having to live within a culture in which it is constantly exhibited all around them. Sometimes people can harm through flirtation, through withholding any intimacy. We could take a bigger view.
So my (unprofound) thought about sex is just: don’t hurt anyone; enrich with the best of what you are; always be kind; try and give something sometimes to people who might benefit; try not to take refuge in an égoïsme à deux etc.
What do I know? But this I have always loved and often quote (VCTR, “1111 Pearl Street (Off Beat)”):
In the clear atmosphere,
A dot occurred.
Passion tinged that dot vermilion red,
Shaded with depression pink.
How beautiful to be in the realm of nonexistence:
When you dissolve, the dot dissolves;
When you open up, clear space opens.
Let us dissolve in the realm of passion,
Which is feared by the theologians and lawmakers.
Pluck, pluck, pluck, pluck the wild flower.
It is not so much of orgasm,
But it is a simple gesture,
To realize fresh mountain air that includes the innocence of a wild flower.
Come, come, D.I.R., you could join us.
The freshness is not a threat, not a burden;
It is a most affectionate gesture–
That a city could dissolve in love of the wildness of country flowers.
No duty, no sacrifice, no trap;
The world is full of trustworthy openness.
Let us celebrate in the cool joy
The turquoise blue
Morning dew
Sunny laughter
Humid home
Images of love are so good and brilliant.
Thanks Damcho. (I’ll drink to that!)
THANK YOU,thats it!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
PS he did sleep with males
Thank Michael for your words.
Trungpa’s actions lead to a man dying of aids.
They were criminal in nature and if he and Osel were alive they would have been arrest and sent to prison.
Trungpa estate should have be sued and he should have lost everyrthing.
Did he engage in criminal acts.
Yes
When you really start from there the true healing starts.
A healing we all need, you and I.
Thanks
John (No Last Name: Nln) has an extremely vitriolic view and demonstrably inaccurate picture of what happened within Vajradhatu, but he’s also right when he says there are issues we are not dealing with properly, as a group. That’s something that IS relevant to ‘Open Dojo’.
I never heard Trungpa Rinpoche said a mantra would prevent infection. That’s absurd. The Regent did say something along those lines as an excuse, but later admitted that was not what was actually said. At the time we were told at meetings chaired by Board of Directors members that Trungpa Rinpoche, after having himself admonished the Regent to desist without affect, had pleaded with Board members to help him stop the Regent. He himself was mostly bedridden and passed away in the midst of the Debacle. The Board failed, largely due to the hierarchical structure of virtually any religious organization, and the sub-culture milieu it operates in – we don’t have real police. They did request and got help from High level officials of the Tibetan Buddhist church, who did their level best to stop the Regent.
The Regent refused their suggestions or ways to work with the situation, and instead withdrew to Ohai, California setting up his own enclave, estranged in all meaningful ways from Trungpa Rinpoche’s sangha, no longer welcome in Boulder after having created a gaping split in the community by trying to excommunicate members who did not transfer their loyalties from Trungpa Rinpoche to himself, and knowing that if he ever went to Halifax the headquarters of Vajradhatu, or anywhere in Canada he would have been arrested for murder. In America, at that time at least, sleeping with someone and infecting them with AIDS was not an offense prosecutable as murder, or Kier’s relatives would probably have brought charges against him there, as they promised they would do if he went to Canada.
That Trungpa Rinpoche or the Regent did or did not make mistakes is one issue, not at limited or defining of cults. Again, every organization is prone to and has experienced mistakes and abuses of power. How it was kept hidden and handled after the fact by all responsible parties, including members then and now is another issue, in which John Nln has some leverage.
(cont.)
I have heard of another spiritual group that experienced similar problems, a high level official deemed later as having a ‘borderline personality disorder’ who was highly manipulative and misused their position, abusing members. The lineage holders there worked with it by first removing him from all responsibilities (he moved on to more fertile pastures), and then collecting all information about what had happened, what signs had been missed or ignored, the damages incurred and what could be done to prevent it in future.
Anyone now being promoted to teacher level must read these notes and is interviewed about it. It is an open and detailed account in effect immunizing the group from such a problem ever reaching those dimensions again.
In this Vjdh/Shambhala abjectly failed. Is this due to some of those involved still holding high level positions? Who can say. In any case it has been treated as something that will heal or fade with time alone, as if we have the brains of chipmunks, or as if humans haven’t yet invented writing. The Debacle is a part of Vjdh/Shambhala history, and disowning it makes it all the darker.
And too we can see how this tactic is still extant, for example trying to quell the split in the community around those who disagree with specifics about the Sakyong Mipham’s direction or are still loyal to Trungpa Rinpoche’s teachings, and on the other hand those who have transferred that same kind of relationship to Sakyong Mipham, waiting it out till those in dissent give up, go away or die.
In general, my view is that this is a problem born of basing the administrative and political structure of Shambhala on the vajra-master teacher/student relationship. Within that theocracy, and again this is in no way a definition of cults, but rather a quirk of any human organization that is too highly centralized, from the PTA, to the CIA, from prisons to the Catholic Church, from China’s Communism to Rupert Murdock’s organization, corruption is inevitable. Show me a highly centralized organization and I will show you a hotbed of corruption, scandalous sexual relationships, and damaging secrets. There are no exceptions.
In the inspiration that in this multifaceted world, black and white thinking about complex issues is probably a form of pathology.
Bravo, James Elliott. I largely agree with your version of our history, as well as your view of highly centralized organizations. My personal view is that our failure to deal with the Regent Debacle in a sane and healthy way, not to mention a dharmic way, is the basic cause of the dysfunctions within our sangha.
I know from documents on the Chronicle Project site, and from private conversations, that HH Dilgo Khyentse Rinpoche and HE Jamgon Kongrul Rinpoche were fully apprised of the crisis in our sangha surrounding the Regent. I have heard from a reliable source that HE JKR’s view was that the Regent should stop teaching altogether, and go into seclusion (retreat) for the remainder of his life. If that had happened, much suffering in our sangha might have been prevented.
As it is, the karma of our situation continues to ripen in malodorous ways.
As for John Nln, it might be more effective for you to seek a trauma therapist to deal directly with any personal wounds that have their root in our sangha. Accusations of crime have no teeth at this point.
there is no situation that can be inproved,karma actually works,.the regents karma is his own on the path to liberation,just like us,if that effects you because of your attatchments,thats ok,then you work with that,because it is your karmic attachment,one cannot blame one’s karmic attachments,we work the situation, also CTR gave each of us spercific instruction because he loved us all,his actions were always to that end there is nothing else,he wanted us to become enlightend beings…..so happy continuation..sack of hammers,blameing others for your pain is not working with the situation,the Regent has his own path so do you,can you help others on there path? thats the work
PS and suffering cannot be prevented by logic action,suffering is life,thats how you know you exist…because of that you love all beings on the path,the Regent is the Regent CTR is CTR,what a magnificet display…………….thank Anu for wiskey
PPSS,You cannot save beings,thats the problem with therapy,it only brings you back to your imprisonment,you can show the way,what ever that means,otherwise its almost a crap shoot…beyond LOGIC…..
PPSS,You cannot save beings,thats the problem with therapy,it only brings to you back to your imprisonment,you can show the way,what ever that means,otherwise its almost a crap shoot…beyond LOGIC…..
We have all been actors playing out our roles in this royal Dharmakaya play.
All good little actors dutifully carrying out our lines and resulting STAGED
karma.
CTR and the Regent played out their lines and roles
.
Now it is our turn to continue this royal FARCE until our lines and roles come to an end.
To ACT and to DIE and to ACT and DIE until this UNIVERSAL STAGED PLAY
comes to its glorious end.
Good night my sweet actors.
Sleep well, dream well for the curtains go up at this THEATRE of the ABSURDS again tomorrow.
Hey, Dude! I agree with Suzanne….
but I’d put it a different way….
DUDE! Yer totally FUCKED!
yer not really talking to anybody…this is just a place
where you can put your words….like another commodity
I will have the decency to refrain from identifying….
really…DUDE….there’s no hard feelings…there’s no way
I could ever take anything you say seriously…welcome
to pinataville!
(YES! yes!! this is a way part of the sangha was sometime….or some of the sangha was part time….the way I’m being right now….like it? )
Dear Suzanne and James,of course you are right about organizations,It seems when the Buddha made up the Vinaya rules he also stated “this is where the corruption starts”,and with or without rules its there…so I suppose we are stuck with that,where nothing really works,some times its like Hercules cleaning out the Augean stables,,and of course the joke is we all know the horses are going to shit again,perhaps thats why Hercules is laughing while he is shoveling…perhaps that is why jumping in for no reason is interesting?…I find I do not have any answers just alot of questions.
Gesar speaking of his fathers work,on the Chronicles Yonten expedition,says some thing very interesting “without the sacrifice ,and choice of countless others to plunge in full heartedly with no apparent good reason he would have been stopped in his tracks”…I think we just loved him simple as that…
Reading through this thread must needs confess that am almost overwhelmed by the glaring irony that the individual whose number and caliber of medals outshine probably the sum total of all the rest of the contributors put together is at the same time not only the most profound, brilliant, powerful and eloquent, but clearly doesn’t spell very well.
I guess that what comes of getting too close to those foreign-born cult leaders from remote medieval mountain regions…..
To tell the truth, I have often contemplated about cults, what they are, what the meaning of the word is. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cult has a little bit on it, naturally, and in fact does a good job of demonstrating how often certain types of words, especially those dealing with cultural issues (almost-pun not co-incidental btw), are hard to pin down.
My favorite use of the word, which I think captures the modern usage in the essentially derogatory way John NN is using, comes from Bubba Free John, who later morphed into someone with a far more glorious name which I don’t recall (Adida something?), namely: ‘the cult of the couple’. He was discussing unhealthy relationships. I think of it as ‘bubble mentality’ and I believe that all associations, from a couple to a country, can fall into such traps. They are society’s equivalent of the meditator’s nyam, which is a form of temporary fixation.
That said, the relationship of tantric master to student is that of a ‘cult’ in both the quintessential and cautionary sense – it transcends the bonds and bounds of contemporary realities and instead promises a mutual commitment of the utter destruction of conventional egotistical patterns of perception and behavior. Such a bond between two or more, although provocative, even dangerous, and often possibly also illegal, is not necessarily a bad thing, indeed it can be a splendid, heroic exercise in engendering wisdom and compassion.
That said, there is nothing inherent in a ‘tantric cult system’, so to speak, which necessarily prevents it from becoming a mutual admiration society that leads one to lead followers to commit mass suicide with poisonous gas in underground trains. Except authentic lineage, which still is no more than a judgment call, when all is said and done.
Ultimately it’s about taking personal responsibility for one’s life and actions, i.e. we are not talking about children here but mutually consenting adults.
As to various legal accusations and labels being thrown around, seems to me the points made have been more inflammatory and rhetorical than substantive – or at the very best, no more than hearsay.
As to accusations of murder and suchlike, such matters really shouldn’t be thrown around lightly. I spent time with the young man in question very shortly before his end and he certainly never spoke that way, nor did he manifest any such feelings, though some of his relatives were indeed (and understandably so) upset. But that is all something for them to work with, and not something to be hashed out on a forum (imo).
For example, I suspect that Lady Diana might have a thing or two to say about rape charges, but then she is far too wise to say a thing or two about it here!
PS small point to Jamie about religion from above: I did say ‘conventional religion’ and was not intending to imply that the definition quoted applied to yogic/tantric/mystical/contemplative schools. That said, one of the functions of ‘dharma teachings’ surely is to provide a means whereby practitioners of the same ilk can both transmit and communicate shared experiences and views. I guess the real rub here is the degree to which individuals are willing to surrender their own intelligence under the guise of laying down their ego. There is no easy definition or process for getting this right. Ultimately, I think the safest and most reliable course is to avoid over-centralisation and to maintain social structures featuring a plethora of linked but essentially autonomous sanghas. Which brings me back to my personal fascination with local energy, local communities and so on. Or to put it another way: as soon as you have a Pope or a multi-sangha Throne Holder for that matter, you are going to have problems. Which is also why I disagree with NNJohn that we should all be genuflecting to young Tibetan lamas in China right now.
Ash
Statutory rape is when a adult has sex with a girl under a certain age.
It would appear that if you are under the age of 16 you can NOT give LEGAL
consent.
Learn the LAW first before you comment.
John Tischer
Like a little child you must us the “F” word to show your little dirty mind.
How many decades have you sat on a meditation cushion and alI you can say is “F”.
You silly little boy.
Go wash out your mouth and your computer.
NNJ: as I said, you remarks are hearsay at best and thus both legally, lawfully and morally irrelevant. (Further, I confess that I haven’t studied up on Scottish Statutes in the 1960′s, but doubt that you have either.)
Your main point though, I take it, is that because his followers don’t want to admit that he was guilty of murder of a young man because one of his followers disobeyed explicit instructions to stop exposing people to the disease (which was illegally tested for on his instructions), and possibly guilty of the (statutory, not emotional) rape of his future wife, therefore anyone who studied/worked with him is a brainwashed cult follower.
Now that is a strong point. But I find it puzzling that the man making that point is also trying to get all these hopeless nitwits (here in a far-flung dissident wing of the fractured empire) to bow down religiously to young lamas in Tibet. Surely only totally brainwashed cult members would do such a thing?
Unfortunately, it is beginning to sound like you are one of those types who wants the government invulved [sic] in everything, which is another way of saying that you want somebody else to tell you what to do all the time, which is another way of saying that you are, practically speaking, still a child. For an excellent, and disturbingly pithy analysis of this unfortunate tendency afflicting contemporary Americans, which I presume you are for some reason, I warmly suggest you study the following audio-visual presentation:
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/05/05/republicans-get-in-my-vagina-kate-beckinsale_n_1484918.html?ref=mostpopular .
Now I know some people might find this video funny, but as an arch conservative Royalist myself, I am deeply disturbed that young ladies of an erstwhile ‘conservative’ (albeit admittedly anti-Royalist, republican) bent have the irreverence to discuss their private parts in such a shameless fashion and would prefer that the Authorities overseeing Media would clamp down on such expressions forthwith.
No doubt, dearest No-Name John, you wholeheartedly agree with me on that?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ages_of_consent_in_Europe#Scotland
Scotland
Since 1 December 2010, the age of consent in Scotland is 16, regardless of sexual orientation and/or gender. Before that date, it was 16 for girls (under a statutory offence) and 14 for boys (the common law age of puberty). However, consensual sex with a girl aged between 13 and 16 is NOT rape, but a lesser offence; on 1 December 2010 this has been given the specific name of “having intercourse with an older child”.
Where talking 1970 not 2010.
Different times and laws.
The local newspaper reported that Diane (16 yrs old) had been engaged in a secret romance (???) for a year prior to her marriage to Trungpa .
“The local newspaper reported that Diane (16 yrs old) had been engaged in a secret romance (???) for a year prior to her marriage to Trungpa.”
As I said: hearsay. I don’t know about you, but any time I have been in the newspapers or have read about something about which I have first hand knowledge, they have gotten just about every fact wrong. It’s a siddha journalists seem to have perfected.
But as John P said earlier in his own way: ‘so what?’
The point is not whether your hearsay accusations are true or false, nor whether or not you are a legal expert and everyone else is a blithering idiot as you seem to take pride in pointing out, but this business about cults on the one hand (we were in one and this is a bad thing), and on the other hand your admonishments about how Trungpa’s followers on this board are samaya breakers for not serving a young Tibetan Lama living in modern-day China etc. and thereby disobeying cult laws (which is also somehow a bad thing), etc.
Let us grant that questionable things were done, even statutorily prohibited ones: what is your point apart from trolling, literally, for specious argument?
More importantly, how did you like the video assignment you were given? Any lessons learned?
Ash
My hearsay comes from the Documentary “Wild Wisdom- The life and times of CTR”.
Its on Youtube and you can see it their, the actual newspaper article is proudly displayed. Not hearsay Ash, Not hearsay.
What’s my point nothing.
A 29 year old Catholic Priest has a (secret romance) with a 15 year old girl in his church.
Nothing wrong Ash.
What point are you pushing. That what a Rinpoche does is Enlightened Action and when a Catholic Priest does it its a CRIME.
What my point Ash. To a woman who care think like this, NOTHING.
If it walks like a cult, talks like a cult and thinks like a cult itssssss?
A CULT Ash, a CULT.
Father Mike loves me because he told me that Jesus told him.
PLEASE
j, hearsay is what a third party says about something of which they don’t have first hand knowledge. It’s a legal term. Anything in the newspaper article is simply hearsay, not actual evidence from a sworn affidavit of truth. As a legal eagle I presumed you understood the meaning of the term. In any case, and to sum up the argument: in terms of hearsay your reference to the newspaper article self-evidences that this is all hearsay in a classic, not to mention classically ironic ‘quod erat demontrandum’ way. Or in more contemporary parlance: ” ’nuff said! ”
Again, your point about cults is well taken, as I mentioned above. I share those concerns as I suspect do the majority of people on this forum. But the way you are making the point is sort of fanatically fundamentalist in itself, not to mention somewhat intensely snarky, not to mention downright rude, not to mention obtusely without any humor at all which makes it downright unacceptable in polite society and therefore essentially non-dharmic and thus probably……
WRONG!
It appears you didn’t enjoy the video, either as something amusing or as something to righteously deplore (as I do, both sincerely and in jest). Oh well. As I said above somewhere, the preferred klesha for tantrics to work on is passion. Probably you’re more in the aggressive camp. Let us pray for your sake that ignorance isn’t the main one because then your anger will get in the way of the long periods of doing absolutely nothing year after year that buddha family enlightenment requires. And if you enjoy posting on a forum such as this, you are going to find that hard.
No, my bet is that you are passion-person in disguise but need someone to tickle your funny bone a little more.
Maybe you should channel all this fundamentalist ire by attending one of John Perk’s famous Celtic-Buddhist Dolmen-shifting workshops. Good exercise, great barley bread, and extreme effort at utter futility which has the extraordinary virtue of arousing both libido and humour at the same time. Powerful stuff!
On a more serious note, I think the issue of cults etc. does relate to the original theme of this ‘Open Dojo’ thread in that the open dojo notion and practice has to do with providing space without dogma or specific allegiance. Now I am not sure how one could make a lineage with any longevity out of this, but it is an interesting, as well as most worthy, thing to contemplate.
Politically speaking there are a few things swirling around all this: one issue is that in order to have a group there has to be hierarchy – both vertical and horizontal, which mean there has to be form, rules, authority and all the rest of it. In other words, it’s not all just free-form.
Another issue is that the tantric discipline involves entering into a profound, paradigm-bending cult. The secret tantric mandala is a cult par excellence. No point denying it as long as there is room to allow that the word – as explained in Wikipedia – doesn’t always and only refer to bad cults (of which there are many). This also means that our own cult can be bad, just as our own actions as a student can be bad (aka breaking samayas etc.) so clearly there are no guarantees in tantra, nor do I believe has it ever been portrayed as a safe and thoroughly dependable path. Things can go wrong. Hell is real.
Another issue is the co-existence of different levels of awareness, commitment and function in a full-blown Shambhala-Buddhist society. By S-B I mean our modern type of buddhist community which is not only buddhist per se but also includes conventional communities within society (closer to the Christian version of a faith than the traditional buddhist one, interestingly in that there are both secular and religious strands).
There are no doubt more. But I think much of the concern, arguments, doubts, questions and so forth involve various confusions, not to mention possible administrative and conceptual mistakes, made around how these various strands are handled together and/or separately.
One small example: the purity of the tantric cult needs to be protected as such. If it stops being a cult it will no longer be tantric. Almost by definition.
But does that cult dynamic automatically work with the outer level organisation including how a Sakyong is presented in the wider world, including the larger sangha? And if there is a difference, what is it? Or rather: what is the outer (non-tantric and non-secret-mandala) definition of how a sangha and/or a separate Shambhala Society operates?
I don’t think we have done a good job of clarifying these things and instead are left with a sort of pan-generic mishmash of Tibetan-Western-cultish-spiritual hoo-ha which the Zen-like clarity of the open dojo concept is designed – quite deliberately – to boycott.
I personally think there must be ways to include the outer, inner and secret Buddhist lineages within an overall Shambhalian/Secular umbrella, but that is self-defeating if we try to make the Shambhala path into yet another secret mandala. This is a very tricky and pithy issue for there have been strains of that (secret mandala element) from the very, very beginning after the Ashe Stroke terma was first received and transmitted (and kept secret even from most tantrikas), so this secret/esoteric aspect is part of its seed syllable genetic coding as it were. And yet, and yet, and yet…. the idea was to have something self-standing in the public domain free from all this cultish hoo-ha.
Obviously I have no clarity or solution to offer. But I do feel strongly that getting angry about all this doesn’t really help. This is not an easy thing to discuss, actualize, figure out. Clearly there are problems. But also perhaps it’s not nearly as bad as some people think and they are mistaking their own laziness or internal obstacles and neurosis for wicked leadership, and/or simply unable or unwilling to strike out on their own without the crutch of friendly community support and friendship.
Lastly, I believe SMR bravely addressed much of these concerns by very quickly going public with his Sakyonship in Nova Scotia in a manner which his predecessor had not seen fit to do. This was no small move on his part.
So Ash when a 29 year old Catholic Priest has a secret romance with a 15 year old girl from his church it’s what?
I was never in World War 2 does that me that it would be here say to say it happened?
That same newspaper article is shown in the Documentary “Tulku” which was written and directed by Gesar Mukpo.
It too is proudly displayed in this National Film Board of Canada Documentary.
Rant and Rant and Rant.
This newpaper article us “QUOTES” in their story. The quotes are from Lady Diane Mukpo.
The quote is form her and the newpaper story was from January 1970.
It was Trungpa and Diane talking to the press.
Do you get my point now. ASH.
Finally in terms of cults I would like to revisit a point ably made by the worth John P again, namely (to paraphrase) that one man’s cult is another woman’s enlightened path.
Language is tricky. Built on accessing fourth skandha cognitive fabric using the needle and thread of fifth skandha language and emotion, we rush to all sorts of judgments (or ‘beliefs’) as soon as a word is placed in front of us. (It’s like not actually needing to eat or even smell food, only seeing it, but that being the case, is what we are experiencing really ‘food’?)
What I mean here is that ( in relation to ‘cult’ or ‘dharma’ or ‘spiritual path’ or ‘sanity’ or ‘confusion’ or ‘wisdom’ etc. etc. ) one person’s relationship to the mandala, or the teacher, or one teacher’s relationship to one student, might be creating a samsaric mandala whereas in other situations/moments/contexts those same individuals might be creating enlightened mandalas.
Things are not written in stone. To one person in the Assembly Hall, the Buddha was holding up his hand; to another they saw a luminous flower therein; to yet another he illustrated with impeccable clarity and grace the ineffable glory of Buddhahood (as per the Surangama Sutra) whilst discussing the actions of Ananda with a prostitute – if I remember correctly.
Which is why one of the siddhas is being able to leave footprints in rock. Given the solidity of physical rock is fundamentally illusory – as quantum physicists have proven even using deductions based on originally materialist observation in the realm of conventional-dharma ‘science’ – how much more illusory are things like relationships, the existence or not of cults, or rather negative cults versus positive cults, of samsaric moments and perceptions versus enlightened moments and perceptions.
And of course we might really in fact be dealing with actual one taste or coemergent situations where sometimes ‘sliding down the razor blade of life’ (to quote the Bodhisattva-Comedian Tom Lehrer of 1950′s fame) seems wisdom, and sometimes it seems obstinate, pig-headed and wicked confusion whereas in fact it is neither one nor the other nor both nor neither, in which falling into the extreme of judging our self or others as being totally without merit or solidly right or definitely wrong is missing the point, aka ‘falling into the fallacy of an extreme point of view’. Not for nothing was Buddhism known for the first few centuries after Lord Buddha’s parinirvana as ‘Madhaymika’ or ‘the Middle Way’, meaning the Way between or beyond any extremes.
How does it go? ‘Let he who is without sin cast the first stone.’
Well said.
(Especially since ‘sin’ is not necessarily sin, and ‘stones’ are not necessarily any harder than flowers. Etc. etc. ad infinitum. Tantra is sort of baroque, isn’t it?!)
So your answer is YES???
Its OK for a 29 year old Catholic Priest to have a secret relationship with a 15 year old girl.
You can’t answer YES or NO.
Write thousands of words in response to a ONE WORD ANSWER.
You CAN,T, you CAN’T give an answer .
YES or No Ash
YES or NO.
Can’t you see what’s happen to yourself.
How you are in a state of massive denial.
Please ASH answer the question
YES or NO
It’s funny to observe this. John Nln ranting and raving. Recipients of his wrath point out his anger, his being “narly”, his need to seek therapy, his inability to spell, his being out of it. Even throw in the F-bomb and call him DUDE. Powerful stuff indeed. But he keeps coming back at them with more of the same. They bob and weave and condescendingly dismiss him, but still can’t help responding to his rants. Talk about defending fragile egos!!! Did their guru react with such defensiveness and insecurity when he was criticized directly, as I’m sure he was? Maybe. I don’t know. Heck, I can’t figure out where John Nln is coming from. Maybe he’s serious and sincere. If so, for what it’s worth, the responses to his accusations are generally weak. Their tone and content, for the most part, confirms rather than refutes his accusations of cultishness. It’s more likely I think, that John Nln has his tongue firmly in cheek, laughing his ass off at the responses he solicits simply by saying the same things over and over again, working his audience like an abusive comedian. Keep calling him a clown while you proudly display your glowing red noses and size 25 shoes. Funny stuff!!!
I did answer: it’s hearsay and as such not for me to judge.
Or I could answer another way: maybe it’s not okay for a 29 year old Catholic priest, but what about a 30 year old, or a 28 year old Protestant priest?
What about a 21 year old girl in either case?
Or what if it’s not secret in any case and we are in Ireland in the 12 century when 12 is the age of consent?
I have already granted you SEVERAL TIMES now that statutorily incorrect actions may be involved by some of the characters involved.
And pointed out that the truth or falsehood about that is not really the issue, rather the postiive/negative culthood is the issue.
Why don’t you answer how you can resolve the fact that
a) you are accusing the ( tiny – and largely disgruntled – handful) of people here of being mindless cultists with
b) your pompous admonition that we should all bow down to a young Tibetan out of some sort of medieval honor code to whom your on-high Tibetan Authorities (whom you obviously bow down to for some reason) have told you we are somehow bound, and
c) your approach is entirely without humor and therefore
d) has no place on a Vajradhatu-Shambhala Board!
e) im(not so)ho!
If you don’t like the words, don’t read them! There’s lots of other stuff on the internet.
But again, I STRONGLY recommend Perks’ dolmen-lifting workshops. I can tell you are potentially a TERRIFIC dolmen lifter, and Lord knows, we need more Dolmens in North America!
Furthermore, I think I have sufficient Authority here as a Trungpa-Empowered PooBah in his own right to declare that until you do complete such a program you simply lack the credentials to lecture anybody and therefore also lack the credentials to make all sorts of weird, fundamentalist demands on a thread whose supposed subject is ‘Open Dojo’.
Ash
See the documentary “Tulku”.
Lady Mukpo talks about being 16 years old and 3 months when she married CTR.
That’s not hear say and neither are her quotes in the newspaper article.
Read her own words in her book about her life.
Will her own words by hear say.
Statutory incorrect action- is that another way of saying STATUTORY RAPE”
I murder your mother is that “Statutory incorrect action”?
Is that what you call it, Ash?
So it may NOT be OK for a Priest but OK for a “Wolf in Lama’s Robes”?
I apologize to John Nln and the other participants if this all was actually meant to be serious dialogue. But in this theatre of the absurd (I think John Nln actually used that term earlier), it’s pretty funny stuff for an objective observer looking in from the outside.
j, for the fourth or fifth time, I have granted the point. Even though it is hearsay what a newspaper says that Diana said (could be a misquote) and even though I don’t believe the exact nature of their relations was precisely described.
Again you seem unable to understand the meaning of the term ‘hearsay’ since you obviously cite film and print media as fact. (I find that amazing, frankly.)
I have not bothered to look up the meaning of Rape, but in my book, there is a difference between consensual and non-consensual relations. Now the rule-books (statutes) have deliberately defined the age of consent because the idea is that under a certain age one is not qualified to give consent, i.e. if a six year old girl ‘consents’ to sex with a 60 year old man, this is not valid consent.
I refer you to the basis of law, one of the first Common Law Maxims, namely:
“Consent makes the law.”
Further:
“A contract is a law between the parties, which can acquire force only by consent.
The agreement of the parties makes the law of the contract.”
In this particular case what is being argued (I think) is not whether it was consensual (clearly it was since later they were married and for many, many years), but whether such consent was legally valid (which on the surface at least it appears it was not, but again, this is hearsay unless we are given the exact date of any full-blown sexual relations and the exact age of the younger person involved etc. which I don’t think is the case here yet to be niggly about it). But yet AGAIN: I have conceded that legal point that yes, it was statutorily illegal. I do not concede ‘rape’ and the meaning of this term has not been discussed nor do I really care to go that far. I am quite happy that you can call it such if you like, and I can not think of it as such as I like. I do not feel obliged to kow-tow to your characterization of events about which you have NO FIRST-HAND KNOWLEDGE WHATSOEVER. As someone who lived with the people involved, I am entitled to my own opinion, wrong as that may be of course, but certainly I feel under no compunction to bow to yours, based on watching videos and newspaper articles and so forth. Probably you cannot even imagine that some people actually knew these people in the flesh and that those people’s opinions are no less valid (as well as being no less prone to being delusory) as the journalists and film-makers whose view you seem to accept so unquestioningly.
As it happens, I am currently prosecuting an Appeal against the Supreme Court of Nova Scotia based on the premise that they have violated all three of the above fundamental Maxims of Law between Parties and moreover outrageously maintained that such Common Law maxims have no place in contemporary jurisprudence, which I will now have to argue is a violation of fundamental Dharma/Truth/Law established in the Magna Carta (and long before) and never contradicted by more recent conventions such as the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms and so forth.
Now I may very well be wrong and/or very well lose even if right, but in any case, please forgive me if I find these legal niceties of interest! I am going to have to go up in front of an imposing panel of Supremes (since I cannot afford a lawyer) to literally put my life and liberty on the line with all this.
(No doubt inspired by SMR’s exortation last year to be ‘brave’!)
(That last line was a joke!)
You have not bothered to look up the definition of rape.
I don’t know any woman who would need to look up the definition of what it means to be RAPED.
Sorry Ash I really didn’t know you would need to look up a definition of RAPE.
You can RAPE a girl even if she thinks that she is consenting. The law says that she is to young to form the act of CONSENT.
That statutory rape ASH.
j, I bungled an edit designed to clarify, so here goes again:
I concede statutory – even though I personally insist this is all hearsay and therefore moot at best. But characterizing it as “rape” I don’t concede, nor do I grant your rhetorical hyperbole in the form of: “I murder your mother is that “Statutory incorrect action”?” This is just childish world play.
And again, inappropriately humorless.
Rape is a form of violence basically. I don’t think that Lady Diana has ever maintained that this occurred and frankly won’t believe you if you say otherwise unless you can provide a precise and verifiable quote to that effect. Any other third party inuendo or rhetorical sleight of hand is not acceptable – in my book at least.
And also – to be technical – I am not sure that violating the age of consent statute is in any case the same thing as ‘rape’, which is what you are maintaining without any citations, and personally am not interested in researching it since I lived with the two parties involved and trust the evidence of my own senses more than any arguments made by third parties such as yourself or others.
Michael: what’s it like being an ‘objective observer’. As far as I know, that’s an impossibility. At least it has been ‘objectively’ proven impossible by ‘scientists’…..
That said, a good example of a ‘nyam’ is the continuation of this argument without a sense of humor. And if therein I have strayed, then your little (contentless) comment is (nevertheless) welcome!
Well, in the words of the great Puccini: ‘Buona Notte!”
j, okay, I concede again but will maintain that there is a difference between consensual but underage and therefore statutory/statuary rape and non-consensual and thus also essentially violent rape.
You are cleaving to the legal use of the term whereas I, being sort of British and Shakespearean by upbringing, am more interested in the inner emotional meaning.
In my book, statutory rape is legally wrong, but I leave it to each person to decide whether or not that equates necessarily to its being morally wrong, which not matter what your opinion is in that regard is not the same thing.
This is key in terms of our discussion – if you can call it that given your passion for insult without furtherance of any truly interesting and enlightening/helpful argument.
And since Lady Diana decided to stay with CTR and have children with him, and later her mother and sister both chose to live nearby in Boulder, I am not overly concerned that rape of an unpleasantly violent – or otherwise immoral – nature took place. Again, if you have a precise quote by Diana indicating otherwise, please put it up (or shut up). Otherwise you are just playing word games, whilst avoiding to address my (more interesting) challenges as to what is really being discussed, namely our cultishness and (unfortunately) your fundamentalist boorishness.
I can see you will come back again in some way with this so will try to head you off at the pass: I am totally FINE with statutory rape having been committed as long as it was not actually violent rape and even if it was, as long as Lady Diana is fine with it, that is fine with me, and in any case, it is not really my business since I wasn’t there and don’t know and will never know what happened. Now if you want to characterize this as inappropriate or terrible in some way, that also is fine by me. Truly. As long as your argument or statement is clearly made.
All best (and again – PLEASE sign up for that Dolmen-shifting course),
Lord Happy Life.
PS I highly recommend this radio station. It will help you let go of your concerns about all this. Basic Westerners figured this all out years ago: http://www.1.fm/Station/Baroque/Default.aspx
“Michael: what’s it like being an ‘objective observer’. As far as I know, that’s an impossibility.”
It means not being so emotionally wrapped up in the issues pertaining to this dialogue that I can step back and observe what’s actually being said, the tone, the content, the vitriol, the anger, etc. and express an honest reaction without any predetermined bias. Impossible? I think not.
Contentless? Wah! You hurt my feelings. After reading your latest dissertation, I suggest you add a big bow tie to match the clown nose and big shoes. So you’re a “Shakespearean!!!” Now THAT’S humor. Well done! LMAO
John P. (from only May 5, which seems like 2 weeks ago, thread-time!)–thank you, I didn’t know that and it has made my day, or possibly year (!)
Ash–well said.
James and Suzanne–it’s good to hear further information about this. Learning the lessons of that time seems very much a part of Open Dojo…
Ash: “I think much of the concern, arguments, doubts, questions and so forth involve various confusions, not to mention possible administrative and conceptual mistakes, made around how these various strands are handled together and/or separately.
“One small example: the purity of the tantric cult needs to be protected as such. If it stops being a cult it will no longer be tantric. Almost by definition.
“But does that cult dynamic automatically work with the outer level organisation including how a Sakyong is presented in the wider world, including the larger sangha? And if there is a difference, what is it? Or rather: what is the outer (non-tantric and non-secret-mandala) definition of how a sangha and/or a separate Shambhala Society operates?
“I don’t think we have done a good job of clarifying these things and instead are left with a sort of pan-generic mishmash of Tibetan-Western-cultish-spiritual hoo-ha.”
Well said! Especially the last sentence.
Well I do not know where to start,as I have just come in from the field where we was juggling Dolmens,which Ash should know are pre-Celtic,being a toffie nosed charter house public school swat them that talks like they have a clothes peg on their nose and we takes ash-sunption to our spellin taken into question,which we was carving into stone,but because of some of them long words,we decided to stick to spirals and crosses,not our fault that we did not know the rule ” no e before c unless after p” for us secondary school boys rules was made to break…anyways I would like to ask our “John” a question if thats ok…Why was it that no one brought charges against Trungpa Rinpoche?
No follower of Jimmy Jones Rinpoche ever charged him with a crime.
No follower of Charlie Manson Rinpoche ever charged him with a crime.
No follower of Trungpa Rinpoche ever charged him with a crime.
What do all three Rinpoches have in common.
” what do all three Rinpoche’s have in common”
well thats easy,
the answer is YOU John boy………Your Fixation owns you………….
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ages_of_consent_in_Asia#cite_note-15
People’s Republic of China
In the People’s Republic of China the age of consent for sexual activity is 14 years, regardless of gender and/or sexual orientation.[16]
[16] “2009 Human Rights Report: China (includes Tibet, Hong Kong, and Macau)”. State.gov. 11 March 2010. Retrieved 11 April 2012.
What’s the age of consent between a Priest and a GIRL to have a secret romance?
What did they have in common these three rinpoches”
Sex with their teenage followers.
We can start from there .
The age of consent depends on the particular culture and its cultural norms. In Scotland, it is one age; in Tibet, it is another. There is no absolute age of consent.
SO,John can you answer the question?”WHY was it that no one brought charges againts Trungpa Rinpoche ?”
To John Perks
I already answered that at 1153 am today.
You can do better John Parks.
Your question does not make you shine, does it.
John Can you answer the question? it starts with WHY do you think?………….?You did not answer you made a statment…so why do you think that is so?
Most victims of a CON or FRAUD never report the crime to the police.
Their just to ashamed to report it and the con artists know it.
I actually know people who were in a cult and once they left they were in a state of shock and depress for years.
Most want to forget the entire experience that they lived and in some cases for decades.
Con artists can come to your door as a guy selling a vacuum cleaner to a guy in red robes selling you enlightenment.
Hopefully you were just sold a fake vacuum and not 25 years of slavery to a cult leader .
[excerpt from Dzongsar Jamyang Khyentse Rinpoche, Calling the Guru, a commentary on Jamgön Kongtrül Lodrö Thaye’s Crying to the Gurus from Afar, in Menz, Germany, 2010]
…
One way to encourage our trust in cause, condition and effect, especially on a subtle level, is to actively discourage our trust in our fallible point of view, and encourage mistrust and suspicion of our limited logic. We can withdraw from our usual biased perceptions that are calculated and rational. After all, logic and perception have proven to be untrustworthy many times.
Last year, for instance, it was an accepted fact that egg yolk raised our bad cholesterol level, whereas this year it’s not an accepted fact. Science has proven undependable many times. So-called facts are not that factual.
Facts change all the time. One doctor says that it’s a fact that with no gallbladder, certain foods cannot be eaten. The next doctor says that it’s a fact that any food can be eaten, no problem. And the next doctor says that it’s a fact that, in particular, sausage has to be included in the diet.
So we need to call our customary trust in so-called facts into question. And suspending our belief in accepted facts will create a space in our logic. Then heartfelt trust in karmic cause and effect can have a chance to infiltrate our minds.
…
Thank you John,I understand that is very painful,I am sorry,what do you think might help?how can people help?What should we do?
P.S. I have to go to work now but will await your answer in the morning,
you talked about healing?…good night,all the best John.P
John keeps hurling inarticulate bombs. The respondents, in their well-worded responses, swing and miss. They scramble to either dodge his statutory rape accusations on technical grounds or pose the “no harm, no foul” argument. One asks “Why didn’t anyone press charges?” Gee, that’s a tough one. Seriously? Catholic priest pedophile victims are only coming out decades later. Most probably will be silent forever. Enough already. Give it up and throw in the towel. With your defensive responses, John without a last name is making you all look like cultists he accuses you of being. And you can’t help but continue to respond and prove his case. Hilarious!
Michael–huh? I found Ash’s response quite to the point, dodging nothing.
And John P.’s question about charges just points to the reality of the situation–that there is simply no evidence of impropriety, and that Lady Diana is highly capable of speaking for herself in any event. That’s it!
I don’t quite understand why John has chosen as his “cultists” precisely the people with, it seems to me, some of the most well-rounded perspectives on the community, given that they have been both inside it and now, to varying degrees, outside it, and have offered much in the way of critique. (I don’t speak of myself–I wasn’t around back then.)
Well, Michael, I now regret throwing down the gauntlet on this one, mainly because this is too tricky a topic for this medium.
I think raising the issue of whether or not Vajradhatu/Shambhala was then or now is a ‘cult’ is not unworthy, but how it is raised and discussed is where it gets tricky.
For example in this current case we have someone hiding behind an anonymous identity pot-shotting out rather serious allegations. On some level this too is fair but consider this: many of us on this Board (perhaps unlike yourself & NNJ) know the individuals involved including, for example, the children of CTR and Diana, including, for example, Gesar Mukpo. NNJ is accusing Gesar’s father of having raped his mother. I wonder how he would feel if his family were discussed in so public and cavalier a fashion, newspaper articles notwithstanding.
Now there is no way this is not sensitive issue. Yes, one can argue that being sensitive about it is a clear sign that one is in a cult. But at this point, such lack of basic decency and consideration has, I believe, gone beyond the pale for in his zeal to expose cult members for the deluded fools he believes them (us) to be, he tramples on all semblance of human decency and decorum.
He has also declared on this thread that CTR was directly responsible for murder. Again, this might be something worth discussing, but again it can only be done in a serious, sober, mutually respectful fashion and I don’t think a casual forum like this is the place for it. Actually, CTR himself might well have agreed. For example, I know that he disliked taking calls from distressed students asking for ‘advice’ about whether or not to abort a recently conceived child, for – as it was explained to me – the request was not so much an intellectual question (even if the questioner thought of it as such), but an attempt to ‘transfer the cow’s load to the ox’, or in other words get Trungpa Rinpoche to take on the karma, because of course once he advised ‘yes’ or ‘no’, for most students who respected his judgment this was as good as a final decision. And some might argue – not without good reason – that abortion is akin to murder.
Moreover some others might argue – also not without reason – that students acting on the teacher’s mere words that way is a clear sign that they are cult members. Again, this is not entirely without merit and might be worth discussing. But at the same time, this sort of thing happens in any relationship where there are levels of hierarchy, which includes simple respect from younger to older, more foolish to more wise; such is the currency of human relations. And just as with actual physical currency, even if at one time or another in its history it has passed through the hands of a brigand, using it now does not in and of itself constitute evidence that one is a thief. In other words, there are perfectly good reasons why such advice might be followed, or why someone might feel comfortable requesting and taking advice from an elder. Especially in matters whose decisions depend upon judgment calls that often seem beyond the ken of those making them. That is why elders are so often respected in society – all societies. Often they can see the situation better than the one going through a particular challenge for the first time.
Is being uncomfortable about discussing such things a sure sign that we have an unhealthy cult on our hands? Possibly. But it can also be a sign of other things too, like a natural reserve about discussing sensitive personal topics in public.
Lastly – though hopefully this is not throwing down the gauntlet again – the actions of mahasiddhas have often outraged conventional morality. Remember that the first Trungpa was the tulku of the mahasiddha who rode away from his parents house in a huff (on the back of a tiger with his consort) because the former objected to his throwing wild parties on their roof! Tilopa worked as a pimp. And so on…
It seems so peculiar that even as the fallout of Japanese radiation still continues around the globe 24/7 14 months later, lodging in our hearts and lungs and guts, and even as young children in japan are dying of cardiac arrest and cancer, and even as the wrecked Fukushima meltdowns and melt-throughs have burned into the earth down to the water table, and even as we are all bio-accumulating ever-greater radiation ~~ this nonsense about who did what to whom seems completely insane…life on this planet is actually in dire straits. The same media that hyped a so-called secret romance in order to sell more newspapers is the same media that is censoring your news at the behest of the nuclear industry…
AH Ash,well spoken,but how many gauntlet’s do you have anyway,you are begining to look like Avalokiteshava so many hands ,looks like every one has been willing to talk about or been open to John’s comments,I expect it has run its course,unless John is willing to talk rather than shoot one liners……..so on we go,cult no cult does not realy matter,We have the great fortune to have known a Mahasiddha if that is slavery in others eyes,to bad for them,we wish them jolly good luck……………..
What was ash going on about before he had a second thought and deleted his last message, that bugs will eat all the radiation and poop out non-radiation…really, but where does the radiation then go? Does the toxicity just become inert in the bugs’ stomachs? But they would have to consume all the food and water and air on earth in order to purify everything, wouldn’t they? And this boast of having composed 30 legal-size pages in one hour…let’s do the math…30 pages x 42 lines per page = 1260 lines in 60 minutes = 21 lines per minute = one line every 3 seconds…ahem…glad you thought twice about raising that boast. Now maybe ash can turn his mind to less frivolous subjects, we hope…
Somehow I doubt that there were 42 lines to the handwritten page. But it most certainly was 30 pages or so in 3 hours. Also, it’s not a boast since EVERYONE taking the exam did it. We were trained from about 8 years old to write long essays as homework; several a day basically. In between flicking ink at each other from the inkwells provided in our three-hundred year old oak desks using our feather-quill and/or steel-nibbed pens! That is why English schoolboys wear black or dark blue blazers – they absorb the ink stains best! We also varnished our straw boaters so the ink could be more easily cleaned off, but that’s another story…
I deleted two separate links because it flags the post for moderation and instead put in one link to a blog post that had them all anyway.
Microbes don’t have stomachs by the way. At least I don’t think they do! In any case, if you read some of the accompanying scientific study links, one of them explained a little bit of how it worked, but basically it’s very simple: they feed off the energy and in so doing it turns into something else, at some point no longer being toxic for us. That sort of thing goes on all the time with all energy forms. The best text in the world for how this works scientifically also happens to be the oldest we have on the planet, namely the ‘I Ching’ or ‘Classic of Changes’ or ‘Living Energetic Process Theory’.
(You say this is frivolous. A poster before was saying that the other discussion was frivolous in the light of more serious matters such as the world-wide toxicity entering the food chain from the Fukishima disaster. Don’t worry, though, my injury time is coming to an end very soon and I won’t be posting so much! Meanwhile, for the sake of your own health, I suggest slightly less complaining and slightly more original, creative input! Think more like a fungus and less like a frump, Mr. Safely Hidden by Anonymity Joe Schmidt!)
I like your upper public school stories Ash,how the other class lived seen it on PBS BBC,we had slates and chalk,and I was waring USN sailor pants from me sisters boy friend,and yellow shirts made out of body shrouds by me mum,she was in the NFS ,on my feet ex-home guard boots 2 sizes to big with rags stuffed into the toes to make em fit ,no socks,gave me blisters on me ankles.we had some masters from the upper class,with war wounds,and shakes,they treated us very well,reading stories to us,for some reason the world seemed to me to be black and white ,anyway come and visit if you can,we will drink and tell stories…….cheers JP
Ahoy JP: when next Down East, will do utmost to visit for some yardarm hoisting. Your shoes too big: mine too small since nobody noticed I needed new ones, so toes are now as curled and gnarly as poncy nose is overly straight and snooty!
I know how well read you are, but if you missed or have forgotten some of Tristan Jones, one of his earlier books was about being a (press-ganged?) lad in the lower decks, I trow you would much enjoy a dip in those waters.
Toffs like me have no idea what life was like, nor do most modern Westerners. We treated people like that (working classes basically, both urban and rural) far worse than most slaves (and this was true of ‘white slaves’ in the Americas though few know of it today) and really despite all the shenanigans going on with the Banking Boys these days (what else is new?), things are much sweeter than they used to be.
(Except butter, eggs, bread, cheese, wine, beer, etc. etc. !)
Oh well, I’m buggering off now to totter over to my little birthday bash….
ASH great,and a cheerfull happy birthday,with many more to come,have read Tristan Jones,life was hard I like what Bill Cosby us’ed to say,”he had to walk to school bare foot 12 miles uphill both ways”…happy birthday again love,and cheers…John
Diane is Ashoka mother who is the real birth father?
Why did CTR adopt Ashoka?
It is not worth answering this low grade smutt dealer,it happens to be a hell realm being,it goes by the name of john small j ,we say to it WATCH OUT !!! Pog Mo Thion, Suas Do Chu…and then there is silence
Thank you, John Perks. Enough with this low-grade-smut-dealer-hell-realm being. Let us not entertain it further.
CULT
Hey Suzanne,Thank you,great to see you love to you always JP
Love to you too, John Perks.
I like your logo a lot.
O my goodness I am humbled by your grace,the logo is the great Easton Sun from a celtic prospective,we are all family in the Shambhala tradition……I love your work…in that aspect..faithfully yours John P
Funny, I also was thinking john small, but the full form from that great unwashed American Classic Buckaroo Bonzai: john small berries..
Ah, John P, no wonder I love your logo, the GES from a celtic perspective. Which reminds me of Paul Sandford, an interfaith minister in Great Britain, who initiated the Pagan Buddhist Network on FaceBook. On that page Paul mentions Celtic Buddhism. If you don’t know Paul, you might want to check him out on FB. He says: “My own psycho-spiritual path sees much inspiration and support from both my engagements with Vajrayana Buddhism and at the same time learning about the depth psychology of Hillman’s ecological and animistic polytheism, which has influenced my practice as a Celtic inspired Druid.”
There’s some conversation and sharing between Paul and me on the Pagan Buddhist Network page, based on the influences I have incorporated in my Dharmagaians website. So perhaps there is a common link between you and Paul and me. In any case, as you say, “we are all family in the Shambhala tradition.”
OXOXO Suzanne
Suzanne,
Thank you so much,well this is interesting the common link!!! who would have thunk it,perhaps the Prince himself.
we could work together,we have been working on translating Tibetan practices into english and Irish gaelic which is going very well,we have over one thousand practitioners,and perhaps you know Billy Burns has been painting the Celtic deities for us you can see them on our website,do you have our email?because we could talk about doing programs,and other things .I do not want to say to much on this site as Ash will pick it up he is a Norman you know,and will tell the Romans.
Anyway thank you again,much love John,also interesting to think small “j”was the trigger so to speak.
tiny john….you are really having fun, you little sociopath…I’d really like to meet you in person.
I love all the little shoots at me.
Mental migets.
Tiny johnny tischer
I am talking about your mind or your ……..
CULT<CULT
CTR has been dead for almost 25 years.
I asked what are historical questions about him.
You can not give me any answers to my questions.
Why?
Shame!!!!!!
Simple questions like—
Age and cause of death.
He was 47 years old and was an alcoholic who some could claim comment an act of long term suicide by drinking himself to DEATH!!!
He had 2 sons with diane but he was NOT the father of Ashoka.
Gesar had no problem saying this in his documentary “Tulku”.
Gesar said that they had the same mom but not the same dad.
Who is the true father and why did he give up his son to CTR?
LADY Diane???
Made up title?????
Armed bodyguards??????
Crashes car in store with a yong lady in his car. Destroys the left side of his body. Was alcohol involved???!!!
History of SEX, drugs and violence???
Twenty nine year old CTR has “secret romance” with a fifteen year old female follower?
CTR has sex with his female followers.
CTR has sex with male followers????
While CTR was fucking young girls, getting drunk and doing drugs where was his first son SMR. In a refugee camp???
Simple historical questions with no answers.
Why?
Shame!
Cult shame?????
Not exactly Norman, J. Am reading that biography of 17th Earl of Oxford who probably was the real Shake-speare. Whether that’s true or not, it’s fun reading about one of the most respected aristocratic lines in Europe (goes back to Romans and before etc.). BUT one interesting little factoid not well explained (unfortunately like too much in this generally excellent book) is that one of the main ancestors of the Oxford / de Vere line came over on the boat with William the Conker by way of Amsterdam. Which is mildly interesting for myself since that is as far back as knowledge of my (totally minor and middle class!) family line goes, namely to X de Huys (don’t remember 1st name) from Amsterdam, also on that same boat in 1066 when your lot got terminally screwed it seems….
Now probably that means my ancestor was in service somehow to the de Vere, already of ancient pedigree (Merovingian etc.) which means if there was any upstairs-downstairs fun and games in that or successive generations, there’s a remote possibility that am related to the Bard and thus AM a real toff!
You big-shoe-hand-me-down wretches can take some (admittedly small) comfort from this though: I read years ago (and since I read it it must be correct of course!) that anyone whose ancestors go back 300 years in England is related to anyone else whose ancestors go back 300 years. So we are related!
But not to little john. This is human realm lineage we are discussing after all, not hell beings!
Seriously, though, little john: the root of all cults in the negative sense is obsessive-compulsive fixation in the context of a social mandala. Now a positive cult I suspect works with essentially the same type of mandala in very similar ways but manages to pop ego fixation – for most if not all of its members – rather than solidify it. The proof of the pudding is in the eating; of course there are no guarantees. And that is why tantra is so dangerous, because in order to pop the ego, first you intensify it. In other words, to become enlightened you first become immersed / stew in confusion. Nobody said this was as easy as watching a samsaric sitcom, or living one for real for that matter!
Speaking for myself: I am quite willing to accept that probably I was a cult member in the negative sense, and if so it took me 10 years (at least) to (somewhat / maybe) let go of it. But if so, I regard that mainly as my own failing and I don’t need (like you seem to do for reasons that you will have to come to understand for yourself) to project or blame everything on one or more leader figures. Nobody is responsible for my own fixations other than my own fixating self. That said, perhaps I just wasn’t able to go the whole way with the discipline given I sort of ran out of steam practice-wise in the early 90′s when I was supposed to be doing new ngondros and/or 6 yogas basically on my own and the mandala seemed weird and fractured. Now if I can do sitting practice once a week I feel that is a major victory and the most elaborate shrine I can deal with is two candles and a stick of incense. Forget about liturgies or mantras!
Clearly you are quite disturbed, angry and surprisingly hostile given that you probably don’t actually know anybody here. And if you do, your choice to remain anonymous is tedious, cowardly, and unhelpful.
Valium might help for 2 days to take the edge off. Then sit every day for one year!
Young cult member makes it on cover of Time. Given the level of spelling, I wonder if this is a picture of our beloved John Small Berries?
http://www.time.com/time/ (the photo of mother and son) inc. series of articles: http://ideas.time.com/dr-william-sears-meet-the-man-who-remade-motherhood/
Thank you all for your answers.
I was engaged with you as part of a Masters Thesis on Cults.
Since this is a public forum there will be no copyright infringements in using all your comments in my Thesis.
No consent is required to reprint your comments.
Yours, I hope will be the first true study of Cult leader and cult activity in the West involving Tibetan Buddhism as the foundation of the CULT.
Thank you all again for your help.
Way way back in this thread I said the following – “It’s more likely I think, that John Nln has his tongue firmly in cheek, laughing his ass off at the responses he solicits simply by saying the same things over and over again, working his audience like an abusive comedian.”
Funny. I notice that “no name’s” last response, preceded by childish name-calling and put-downs (and his mother wears army boots!), didn’t have the typos that his earlier posts were laden with. Perhaps (most likely) it’s all B/S, but the level of anger, condescension, and defensiveness in the responses to his accusations pretty much tell the story. And all it would have taken was simply “I don’t worship the man, but notwithstanding his faults, I believe in what he taught.” Was that really so hard?
Ash,I knew you would bite on that one “Norman” ,and I must confess we was in the same boats pulling on the oars I expect,settled in Warwickshire,Hampshire,and ,Kent,but then there was a lot of shagging going on in thoes days {not like now},so the interelatedness is very likely.
Michael, you say,”I don’t worship the man,but notwithstanding his faults I believe in what he taught”
That is not how I feel about Himself,worship no,faults no,believe in what he taught no,thats not what he wanted,he loved us unconditionally,for all our faults,our wanting to worship,our wanting teachings,we loved him the best we could but always wanting something in return,he was is a force of nature,which wanted us to become realized,and to help others,most of us failed all the time,but he did not give up on us ever,we are still trying!!! and that is hard
LOL “i showed this video to a federal agent as part of my masters thesis”
wasn’t it more fun when I used to troll this place instead of dudes like john?
yes, Ashoka, because you are not a psychopath…like john tiny berries.
“It is no measure of health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society.”
J.Krishnamurti.
Rigidly righteous little johnny tiny pebbles could just be an
iconoclastic Jimmy Swaggert confused wannabe…we know nothing about him or what sick clubs he might belong to.
Dear James et al,
Yes getting back to your point of 6th of May about centralising power this seems to be the bugbear that all religious orgs somehow fail under…so I imagine this is why Mark (Szp) was suggesting an open dojo with perhaps a variegated ‘power structure’ –perhaps of checks and balances in the ordinary sense. This is also why I think at some point we will have to return to a possible Declaration about how we are to conduct ourselves as some in the Zen community are doing at the present time.
Also within the context of open dojo of course is ‘enlightened society’ as a universal relationship mode, which would have to be very much seen in these terms of applying to All without barriers…(this somewhat chimes with conventional thinking about political structures that Michael Hardt is talking about when he talks of the Multitude of humanity exerting its power on situations/events.)
Now how you posit the vajrayana relationship within the open dojo concept is quite a fix but I think it will have to be done somehow because of the structure of western society which favours the democratic –perhaps it calls for some kind of new vajrayana practitioner or guru in the sense of open dojo type qualities…..Trungpa indeed did begin this involvement with a western style of doing things somewhat -perhaps now it is the task of the many to begin to examine the qualities that a new type of guru would embody in the west…..or then again some may posit that this is not possible to do….so all very much in the mix of how we are going to go forward -these interminable questions of authority, open dojo, and politics in its most widest sense
Well best.
Rita Ashworth
The less theory the better. This internet seems to lend itself to weird energy and anger, and attacks. Better probably to set up groups and organize and report on concrete successes and issues.
JP- as I recall we always had sails on our boats. Maybe you had oars on yours?! That said, coricle races were enjoyed for centuries by members of all classes, though mainly conducted in rivers. Too much loss of life in the ocean races because of the coricle’s lack of any consistent propulsion or rudder principle. Little better than aquatic bumper cars, really.
I don’t think you can maintain and transmit vajrayana lineages within an open dojo container. That’s mixing solid with liquid and ending up with neither. But of course anyone can do anything within an open dojo.
Suspect the main antidote to over-centralisation is to develop structures with strong quotient of localised autonomy. This is as true in permaculture farming/gardening as in urban economic and cultural development, as in many other things (unity in diversity principle), and since this concern is about the societal dynamic of a so-called religious community (rather than being concerned with the doctrinal content or contemplative method), thinking in terms of the local community structure versus the national/international is apropos.
Again, I think this is the real issue, and it is easier to discuss quasi-logistically than philosophically/theoretically but we tend to think and discuss things like Shambhala, Vajrayana, Hinayana, in abstract terms, or mainly only insofar as they are spiritual practices and teachings. But only thinking of them that way misses the point.
That in a nutshell is my personal ‘beef’ with ‘Shambhala’, that it has become yet another high-falutin’ esoteric yogic/tantric/deeply transformative – not to mention closed/secret society – beast. Maybe it’s a fantastic, glorious unicorn and I am too jaded to perceive it as such.
Logistically speaking, the Shambhala-Vajradhatu Mandala was conceived and structured for a population of hundreds of thousands, not a handful of thousands as is currently the case. We didn’t succeed in making that happen. Presumably the current Sakyong is working more immediately with what is actually feasible whilst also not rejecting that original aspiration. In any case, the structure as was is entirely way too centralised for such a small population. And that brings me back again to my personal conviction that unless and until our model fosters locally autonomous groups with self-reproducing and expanding populations, including their own leadership, it just ain’t working on the logistical level, no matter how worthy the lineage.
That, by the way, is a Hinayana level model, and since the Hinayana deals with the outer level of dharma, i.e. does not reject most conventional views of everyday reality, that is the level on which most local sanghas should mainly function, but probably in a more complete way than we have been fostering. And similarly most of the Shambhala teachings should remain firmly esconced within conventional, practical realities, including existing societies, rather than being arcane means of transcending such realities. In any case, local communities based primarily on Hinayana and Shambhala energies is, I think, the only possible long-term foundation upon which the houses of enlightened Shambhalian society can be designed and built, and along with them more extended community structures, all within the context of wider society which in turn varies from place to place, country to country.
If ever we manage to help foster and establish such healthy, self-sustaining local community cultures, it is within such an outer mandala container that the more esoteric inner and secret mandalas will be found, but discussions about them should and will happen only when they are formally gathered together as such.
Perhaps we simply lack the training and vision to set up bona fide outer mandala groups and so we keep undermining them by orienting their members as soon as possible to get into our juicy (and authentically profound) inner and secret stuff.
Just to clarify a little: what is meant by Hinayana going along with basic conventional views of reality, there’s an old saying I don’t recall precisely but goes something like this: In the Hinayana a table is a table. In the Mayahana, thanks to sunyata etc. we understand that it is not that simple, that indeed one can prove that a table is not a table (nor both nor neither etc. etc.). Then in the Vajrayana it both is a table and is not but more importantly it is as good a place as any other for co-emergent consort practices, sometimes with self on top, sometimes with other, but ultimately both enjoying the union of inseparable bliss and emptiness.
In terms of local/central: am reading nice little book which purports to be tourist guide of 1300′s England. Fun. Acres vary in size because they are measured by time, i.e. how long it takes man to plough. 3 hours in Devon is about one hour in Surrey sort of thing.
But in this pre-industrial age, you had both highly powerful ‘central’ powers such as monarchs and Church, but also highly evolved local powers as well, with no end of various strata.
But let us imagine a different Shambhala Mandala – one with hundreds of local community groups all over the world. In each group, various strata/classs/functions naturally evolve, but also they are firmly wedded and rooted to a particular place. With such evolution one will always find, whether in older or modern societies, some people who remain firmly focused only on immediate local situation (housewife and neighbours for example, or children and neighbourhood), and others who relate with representatives in other groups, or travel there for trade, exchange of ideas etc. In other words, naturally some people become local-only locals, so to speak, and others deal with many non-locals though still very much a member of Local X themselves. Now it is these para-localites, as it were, who develop the cultural infrastructure along which the lines of communication travel both to and from the lineage. But the lineage alone does not create and support these local entities.
I believe that we currently have a model in which is visualised that it is the centre which is fundamentally responsible for our local ‘Study Groups’, and that Centre is basically the lineage as especially embodied by the chief Leader/Sakyong/Guru.
That form of centralisation is flawed.
Logistics.
Ash,Aye there you go again,how would you know you thugs that came over with willie the konk was all drunk on wine,they dinot call him the “bastard” for nothing,and after Harold had mached almost 300 miles from having beaten the northmen at standford bridge,and your chaps were about to run off when by mistake someone shot Harold in the eye,then you claims victory,when you could not even catch Hereward the Wake even after many years ,I know cause I saw the movie with Victor Mature and Rosaline Russell,and Bella Lugosi playing the Konk,…anyways you also in mistaken about curricles,there is one in Brazil with sails called a “jangada” iffin you was not always reading Beno and Dandy in school you might know that,now I expect you will say because you was a toff you only read Classic Comics…about Shakespeare there is a very good BBC 2 disc DVD called “in seach of Shakespeare” you will like it very good research..cheers..JP
PS Thats Jane Russell not Rosaline,plays the Konks mum,she was the daughter of Sid the leather worker at the castle in France,Sid was played by Stanley Holloway if I remember,or it could have been George Formby,because it was partly a musical………A silent musical in black and white,but in the theater some one was playing with their organ,and everyone sang along so to speak….very historical..don’t you think it was great that CTR said we should have a sense of history?
My chaps didn’t ‘run off’ as you put it. We found a nice castle with wine and then were seduced by the friendly serving wenches (we didn’t charge them for drinking their master’s suddenly liberated stash of FRENCH wine mind you which HE had first stolen which is the real reason we came over – to get OUR wine back so we could serve it once again to our own damn wives, not foreign serving wenches) and then, frankly, we succumbed to the charms not only of aforementioned – and of course fully clothed – serveuses, but also, strangely, to the heady perfume in the wild and woolly English gardens, whose strange, rugged beauty bewitched us. In the case of my family, clearly Mr. de Huys did something very wrong (called him a Bastard to his face?) and ended up – or his progeny did – in Northumberland, about which I know nothing at all, having grown up in London and not being able to understand a word of people up there – or should I say down there? – except the aforementioned George Foreman, the only Northerner (except the Beatles) whose record I purchased in the Sexy Sixties, of which my favorite track went something like this:
‘I’m leaning on a lamp post at the corner of the street
Until a certain little lady walks by;
Oh me.
Oh My!
Til that certain little lady walks by.
I’m leaning on a lamp post at the corner of the street
Until that certain little lady walks by!”
Come to think of it, maybe Harold’s gaze was directed at the ancestor of ‘that certain little lady’ when our lot whacked him with that arrow and the whole battle story is a myth. Indeed, mayhap the whole ‘battle’ was just a drunken brawl amidst the heady perfume of aforementioned, but now more or less undressed, wenches, honeysuckle, lilac, roses, Shambhalian Peonies, and all the rest of it, and Harold lost his eye when he got wacked by the Bastard’s flailing, albeit still armoured, fist and their publicity agents both agreed, negotiating amidst the billowing flora of said wenches undergarments whilst coming up for air, as it were, to proclaim the whole thing a battle, and then, when Harold lost the throw of the dice because of the pain in his eye caused him to miss the table they were supposed to land on (and my ancestor was tickling the wench who was holding the table), he forfeited ‘the win’, the Bastard got it, and the rest, as they say, is history!
True history can never be understood properly and fully by the attentive scholar until such very real factors including the wine, women and song quotient specifically involved in any particular event, are accurately taken into account!
Most younger people, whose history unfortunately comes from Hollywood back lots, have no appreciation for such niceties and unfortunately jump to all sorts of mistaken conclusions. They call it ‘samsara’ in Buddhist circles…..
Well and as to that we better be history before we bore everyone on this site..love good baking JP
Go ahead and dredge up all your cherished subconscious gossip every time someone brings up the truth that radiation is now engulfing the earth. It is so predictable. For example, if right now somebody mentions Fukushima, some will commence a whole new round of song and dance. That is the pattern. Ignore, ignore, ignore. Okay, I understand the impulse to not want to even think much less speak about the new horrific reality. Lots of common people by which I mean non-meditators rather go to their place of distraction than face the nitty-gritty of the truth of what is happening at this very moment. But even some so-called meditators it seems would rather not acknowledge much less face the sad truth. They rather jump up on the table and shout Look at me. But aren’t we trained to really look reality square in the eye? I don’t mean in a morbid way. And isn’t the present moment of our collective human exposure to massive levels of radiation worthy of our awareness? True meditators are fearless warriors who do not take refuge in distractions such as the nonsense some people like to bandy about.
Ash wrote: “I don’t think you can have vajrayana in an open dojo container. That’s mixing solid with liquid and ending up with neither.” This needs clarification. If you are a vajrayana practitioner, that’s what you bring to, and perhaps makes it possible for you to see and enter into, the open dojo. It is not something you push into or present as a practice for the open dojo. Others who may be with you in the open dojo may have their own, very different forms of individual practice.
I think this is what CTR’s Shambhala view is: in his eyes the Shambhala view pointed to a society in which all kinds of religious practice views were accommodated (in which sense yes, you can have vajrayana in an open dojo container, but the latter is just that, a larger container for not just your form of practice), and the open space “held” by that society could be described, in buddhist or other religious terms, or in its own languages (every perception is an opening to the cosmic mirror).
At the same time, I do see vajrayana as one way to practice and celebrate radical openness – the kind CTR made so apparent. It wasn’t the buddhism that attracted me, and probably you, to him. At the centre of a vajrayana mandala is just open space – “the completely pure samadhi”, surrounded by the retinue of the four foundations of mindfulness. That is one skilful means formulation. That centre is the open dojo, but it actually doesn’t belong to you. Recall how CTR described vajra-dhatu as indestructible space, in which any ego thingling becomes vividly apparent and cannot hide or survive (“this is the great graveyard….).
As part of our individual practices of warriorship we may have our religious practices, but it’s the result of those that allows us to perceive and share open space. From the point of view of society, that is civil space – which demands the best of us, and so, from each of us, our individual practice.
I don’t think this is mythical or anything. I myself experience at least two contexts in which “open dojo” (not named that, but nevertheless that) is a central part of the community experience. And most of the participants in these contexts are not buddhists, let alone vajrayana buddhists. In there, the question is how openness meets openness.
Thank you, Mark, for again clarifying the principle of open dojo. I agree that this is what CTR’s Shambhala view amounts to: open space in the center that can accommodate all sacred outlooks and practices.
Joe Schmidt, yes, the present moment of our collective human exposure to massive levels of radiation is worthy of our awareness. And so are quite a number of other imminent ecological catastrophes, all of them due to human ignorance and carelessness. Catastrophic climate change, the death of the oceans, massive species extinctions, loss of topsoil, fresh water shortages – all these and more, on top of the economic chaos created by a greedy elite class, beg for our awareness. Yes, we have been trained (and exhorted) to really look reality square in the eye. But, believe me, chastising and bullying people will not do any good. (I’ve been a professional activist for 25 years.) You can name any issue and the greatest obstacle to addressing the problem is apathy and denial. In the case of Fukushima, Joe Schmidt, what is there to do about it, anyway? Do you have a solution or a cure?
My suggestion: find the people who are paying attention to whatever issue you want to address, learn as much as you can, make friends, get involved. At least you’ll be too busy to browbeat others who seem to be frivolous, and you won’t be lonely anymore.
Taking refuge in any concept – such as the concept of “open dojo” – is just grasping and fixation in action. Taking refuge in distraction is an expression of ignorance, and therefore it is suffering. Is this “open dojo” practise of distraction and immersion in conceptual mind – which leads to suffering – really a helpful response to reality? Where you see clarification I see only obfuscation.
I don’t care what Joe S, or J. B.S. (I mean S.B.) or R.R. or any Anon. thinks: R.F.S. has been a good public forum for airing many issues, and I think it has contributed to some of the older VCTR students going out on their own an teaching, as they should.
Mr Schmidt,
Fukushima,radiation,awareness,true,meditators,fearless,nonsense,
warriors,taking refuge,grasping,fixation,open dojo,obfuscation,clarification,are these not fixations that lead to suffering?
it seems Ms Duarte gave you some good advise,can you only write in an aggressive manner ?{another concept leading to suffering}.
Why do You not explain how you would go about helping with the situation in Fukushima?many of us here in Vermont have been working for years to close Vermont Yankee,which we hope we are about to do this year,we would appreciate your advise,and expertise in this matter,can you do that?
When the mere asking of a question draws charges of chastising and bullying and browbeating — such charges are themselves the real act of chastising, bullying and browbeating against “Joe Schmidt.” Clearly somebody’s taboos got stepped on… Perks, of course, you are welcome to take refuge in nostalgic stories and puppet shows, if that helps. You are welcome. And fare thee well. Au revoir. Love to everybody!
You don’t get the last word, my frenami…..no, your type needs a little:
:”Don’t let the door slap you in the ass as you leave…”
Dear Mark, Jake et al
Mark I welcome your further explanation of the open dojo ‘concept’ which fits nicely with allowing space for both disciplines, but we are still left with the concrete level in how this should go forward in the world-how ‘openness can meet openness.’
To me that suggests that any physical space that was set up to house CTR’s teachings would in some way have to embody this relationship –then we are again into the notion of his of having separate Shambhala centres (or whatever we would like to call them) and perhaps having rooms within these buildings for other practices –so the emphasis here would be at source or ground level on basic meditation.
To a degree this is what some of the older students are now doing i.e. emphasising basic meditation….of course Andrew Safer has constructed a website offering just such practices in Newfoundland and has succeeded in running courses with other students of CTR-so he is one person who is forwarding a situation where ‘openness can meet openness’.
It seems to me also in these situations there is a flatter hierarchy which kind of chimes with what is happening in general society re politics and the open dojo concept does reflect this too-but I would welcome your reflections on how the open dojo concept reflects natural hierarchy.
In addition there is the added practicality of the open dojo concept being somehow promulgated or forwarded in a society in a teaching sense –why indeed would people lend their affinity to it-in any organisation that we belong to in a religious or secular sense I think we do hope ‘to gain’ some insight or teachings that can ‘forward’ our own path. So yes I believe an open dojo sense could be forwarded – yes the Quaker movement in the west seems to state that this could be achieved practically.
Jake –yes practicalities-good idea- would welcome knowledge of what people are doing out there. I do think also that you do have to have some theory or study element to what you are doing out in the field that is traditional in most Buddhist circles. And of course even the Buddha himself had to use language to transmit his experience to people. So I hope you could give us your thoughts on what is working for you – in I believe Salt Lake City –from what I remember of your posts.
Well best
Rita Ashworth
I was thinking about open dojo in relation to what Rita said about ‘practicalities,’ and the excellent work that has been going on in the ‘secular’ sphere, where group processes have been developed that enable communities to evolve and sanely solve collective issues.
Synchronistically, I remembered an email I received from Tom Atlee, who has been right in the middle of these group process developments for decades. Tom’s email led me to a new tool for group work that embodies the best practices in the field in a pattern language on group process. This “Group Pattern Language” has been made into a card deck and booklet. You can read about it and also download the card deck and booklet at http://groupworksdeck.org/
Mark Szpakowski may know about this, as it is very relevant to his work with ALIA (Authentic Leadership in Action). In any case, the point I’m trying to get at here is that I can see where the Open Dojo concept could also apply to secular group work of the kind that the Group Works site addresses. It could be the space in which people come together to deliberate in a disciplined manner on shared concerns, on things that matter in a particular community – and I don’t mean only a particular sangha, I mean the whole local community in a particular place.
Of course, RFS could be an open dojo if the people who came here were willing to be disciplined and to practice right speech. At this point, it seems obvious, we do not have a strong enough boundary. But my personal longing is to have a physical space where both the secular and the sacred could be hosted in a sacred manner for the benefit of the whole community, if not for all sentient beings. I suspect that Halifax might be the only place in our sangha where that is happening, or that has the potential for practicing open dojo. Am I right?
Dear Suzanne,
You are right “disciplined manner” is a good key,CTR called it “container” that is why we had Kasung and Kusung,many times on RFS we have some people who seem to just want a soap box,without any discussion on their issues,or outright slander of other persons…its no right…perhaps Mark has an idea,perhaps comments would have to be edited?also people like me need to stay on the issues,although humor might be acceptable?..Mark dear what do you think?…John
Thank you, John. The container principle has been a point of discussion, but so far it seems that nobody wants the job of ‘moderator’ – understandably.
Anyway, I just came across a good article in Tricycle that Joe Schmidt might appreciate:
Allegiance to Life: Staying steady through the mess we’re in – An interview with Joanna Macy
http://www.tricycle.com/feature/allegiance-life?page=0,0
Here Joanna, one of my mentors in environmental activism, answers questions about the application of Buddhadharma to the challenges of activism. She says. ” Feeling alarm or devastation can guide us to a deep sanity, reminding us of who we are and what we need. It can remind us that we belong to this larger body and that we care for it. Our power to act, our power to take part in the healing of our world, our power to bring things back into balance, comes from the same source as that [feeling of] devastation. Our pain for the world, and our power to take part in the healing of our world, both come from the same place.”
Joanna also addresses how to approach activism in an egoless way, or from “beginner’s mind.” She says, “We have to find a way to live in mutual respect in a field of uncertainty. We must relieve ourselves of having to have the answer. We can do this by linking arms with each other…. So you can look at this [mess we're in] and sort of feel a kind of solidarity or bond with other people and say, “Gee, look at this. How are we going to respond to this?” You’re not telling people necessarily, you’re not dictating what they’re to do. But you’re asking them to look. But you can know that you want life to go on. That knowing is basic to your very existence.”
Mark, thanks for your contribution to this meandering thread (which you started)!
Instead of “”I don’t think you can have vajrayana in an open dojo container” I wish I had now written: “I don’t think you can maintain continuity of a vajrayana lineage in only an open dojo container.” That is really what I meant.
From my impressions of your description, it feels to me that indeed a well hosted ‘open dojo’ might be the Shambhala space/feminine principle in which no end of different lineages/dances can arise, flourish and evolve.
Again, though, the background issue, or a question begged, is how lineage continuity works in the context of open dojo. My best guess is that some threads weave lineage continuity (vajrayana teachings, vajra masters and mistresses and so forth) but other elements work more on container principle per se, for which there are in turn specialised lineage elements which require work outside open dojo type gatherings per se. So I guess I am saying that the open dojo mandalic expression can only be part of a larger whole, or cannot alone provide a complete social mandala.
My understanding of open dojo is that, pretty much by definition, it is open, i.e. anyone can participate. That makes it also an outer mandala expression containing a complete ground, path, fruition if you will. i.e. it’s complete and perfect on the outer mandala level.
Naturally people can bring in other threads and weaves, including any level of meek, perky, outrageous, inscrutable, bodhisattvic, tantric, shamanastic and Celtic, but the container itself is neither allied to nor is responsible for maintaining the continuity of those types of lineage-engendered cultural inputs.
I think we have been treating Shambhala overmuch as a spiritual lineage stream on a par with a vajrayana lineage stream and in so doing it has lost its fundamental role as container principle. I think it is better thought of and discussed as a societal model rather than a spiritual discipline school. If that were to happen, we might be more overtly using your open dojo but then it would get further layered into different types of dojo/container: blue-style, red style, political meeting style, poetic expression style, Celtic/Polish/British/Japanese etc. style, party-hearty style and so forth. In each case, the container is not there to promulgate or protect a particular school or doctrinal stream, rather to accommodate awareness and its expressions/sensations in various precise, but essentially open-ended, ways.
Tangentially, I think this means we need a return to more traditional, conservative mores wherein the inner and secret mandala remain essentially hidden from public view, not because there are dirty secrets to hide, but in order to preserve the strength, depth and spontaneously/autonomously evolving dynamic on the outer level.
The point where they join is, as has been explained in seminal teachings in the early 80′s, is in the person / being of the Sakyong principle. So this is both a secret, inner and outer mandala role. However, finally revealing that role to the public at large (a very good thing) does not necessarily mean that the secret mandala has been revealed.
But I think we are systemically confused about this and fallaciously assume that because that role has been revealed, that the secret mandala has also been revealed. What this does is compromise the purity and strength of all of them – outer, inner and secret. Furthermore, it seems to have encouraged a general view of Shambhala as being an alternative path, but it looks almost the same – culminating in years of advanced specialised yogas, retreat practices, oaths and so on. This is not outer level mandala stuff at all, and as such is perhaps no longer Shambhala. But maybe it’s the stuff that needs to be going on secretly behind the ‘open dojo’ outer mandala scenes, so to speak, and we have lost the ability to distinguish between the two, both conceptually and in terms of societal / public expression.
Thanks for this, Ash: “I think we have been treating Shambhala overmuch as a spiritual lineage stream on a par with a vajrayana lineage stream and in so doing it has lost its fundamental role as container principle. I think it is better thought of and discussed as a societal model rather than a spiritual discipline school.” Well said.
As for your last paragraph above, maybe. I’ll have to think about it. But I appreciate your being gently provocative. (I would tend to qualify the “we” that you use.)